How spent was Holmes by 1985?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by InMemoryofJakeLamotta, Sep 11, 2020.



  1. Saad54

    Saad54 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Yep. Ray was right there in front of him easy to hit.
     
  2. Saintpat

    Saintpat Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I think this is a big part of it: complete burnout.

    As for Mercer, he was very basic and fell right into every trap Larry set. Mercer was a good fighter but you’re seeing a master at work — like a street magician toying with a mark.
     
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  3. joebeadg

    joebeadg Well-Known Member Full Member

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    A little spent, yea, not washed up. In his prime, he was just great. As he aged of course some of his skillset left him as it did to most fighters. But he was so smart in the ring he adjusted well. He was like the best race car driver with a car that wasn't quite as good as his competiters. He could still win!
     
  4. Devon

    Devon Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Not really, and especially the Spinks fight, even if Holmes was slightly washed, he had all of the physical advantages over Spinks and Holmes’s style can go on longer because he relies on tactics and technical boxing behind the jab, Spinks deserves way more credit for the win, he took away Holmes’s jab and outboxed Holmes and won clearly IMO, he beat holmes in a chess match, I can’t think of many that could do that plus Spinks was a light heavyweight moving up 25lbs and he took away Holmes jab and outboxed him, do yous understand how hard that is? Holmes’s jab, not any boxer’s jab, the greatest jab of all time, there were other people who took away Holmes jab, but they didn’t outbox him, Spinks is the only one that did that, he would block the jab at times, he would slip it, he would move laterally and then he’d counter and get in and land combinations then get out, he ended up making Holmes reluctant to throw it, Spinks may not have had the jab on Holmes, but he had everything else, he had better combinations, he had faster hands and feet, he had the better ring IQ, he had better movement and these were things that Holmes usually had over his opponents, but Spinks had these things over Holmes and he used them to his advantage and confused Holmes and beat him, I honestly believe Spinks is the heavyweight with the greatest ring IQ ever
     
  5. joebeadg

    joebeadg Well-Known Member Full Member

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    IDK if he has ring IQ over Holmes, I think Larry just could'nt pull the trigger, combination of age and lack of serious training. Second fight he beat Spinks bad. But Spinks did have high ring IQ no doubt. Great fighter
     
  6. Fergy

    Fergy Walking Dead Full Member

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    He wasn't a shell by a long way but he'd slipped, obviously that's an age thing.
    But he put all those years of fighting to good use and used his experience to have a pretty good comeback in the 90 s.
    A younger Holmes always struggle s with Spinks, not necessarily losing to him but finding him hard to fight, due to Spinks akward style of fighting.
     
  7. InMemoryofJakeLamotta

    InMemoryofJakeLamotta I have defeated the great Seamus Full Member

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    LOL that was funny.
     
  8. InMemoryofJakeLamotta

    InMemoryofJakeLamotta I have defeated the great Seamus Full Member

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    Yeah I have been high on Holmes lately. Holmes H2H could possibly beat any ATG heavyweight.
     
  9. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member Full Member

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    He wasn't washed up by any stretch of the imagination but he was certainly worn. To make matters worse he vastly underestimated Spinks in their initial match. This is on him just as it is on Lewis for his underestimation of Rahman, or more likely overestimation of himself.

    Holmes started to slip a little in 83. He'd lost a little snap in his jab by around the Witherspoon bout. It didn't show against mugs like Frazier and Frank but it was obvious he'd slipped a fair bit by the time he fought (particularly) Smith and (not quite as obvious) Bey. Both gave him rougher nights than they might have earlier, more so Smith. Williams reinforced this even if he was a talented boxer against non punchers.

    In the first Spinks fight Holmes was under prepared as well as aged and tired. He looked terrible quite frankly but this was in part how sharp Spinks was compared to some previous guys. He showed up in great shape for the rematch (for his age) and fought much better. His jab had however slipped considerably and tho he landed some nice right hands he showed the common tendency in slipping fighters of not being able to pull the trigger soon enough a lot of the time.

    Any talk of Holmes being heavy post Witherspoon is completely asinine as insiders know Holmes and Futch made the decision to start coming in around the 220 mark as at his age boiling down to 213 odd was no longer beneficial. Pretty much all the ATG heavyweights followed this path.

    Even as a Holmes critic i disagree Spinks would always have troubled him. He may have been awkward but that's about it. . Holmes youthful stamina, jab and ability to fire the right hand would have gotten him by nicely every time imo. If Spinks struggled with the rematch version of Holmes he'd be in plenty of trouble against the peak version.
     
  10. Flash24

    Flash24 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    My thoughts also. Spinks mobility and hand speed was all wrong for Holmes at this point of his career.
    Prior to 82" Holmes probably stops Spinks.
    Also Holmes seemed unmotivated in the 1st fight , maybe he assumed he would eventuality catch and Ko the smaller Spinks in that 15rd fight.
     
  11. Richard M Murrieta

    Richard M Murrieta Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Does anyone remember May 19 1985 very well? It was the night that Larry Holmes started to show his decline in winning a decision over Carl The Truth Williams in a nationally televised fight on NBC. He was bothered all night by a Williams left jab, something that a prime Holmes from 1981 would not have. Holmes swollen shut eye bore the work of that jab thrown by Carl. As Muhammad Ali stated in reference to Larry prior to their ill fated 1980 title fight, Holmes Floats Like An Elephant, Stings Like A Snail. That statement summed it up for Holmes as he should have ridden off into the sunset, but the prospect of breaking the legendary retired undefeated Rocky Marciano's record was a huge temptation in 1985.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2020
  12. he grant

    he grant Historian/Film Maker Full Member

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    kinda/sorta
     
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  13. RulesMakeItInteresting

    RulesMakeItInteresting Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Holmes of 1980 would have made a mockery of Michael Spinks. Michael may have lasted 5 rounds. And I happen to be a huge fan of Mike at light-heavy.

    Holmes just seemed to have everything down in his prime. He never had great head movement, but he had the jab, speed, ring smarts, and just enough wallop to more than make up for that. He truly was a marvel at his best, just like Louis, Holyfield, and Ali.

    Just my opinion.
     
  14. Entaowed

    Entaowed Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    Do you think he should have lost that decision?
    If anything maybe that one rather than against Witherspoon.
     
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  15. Richard M Murrieta

    Richard M Murrieta Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    That is true. But I watched that fight on television that evening, it appeared to me that he had lost to Williams, just remembering that hideously swollen eye lid. Carl was pretty accurate with that long left jab.