Well then surely you take the other version who was beating Nunn, Reggie and McCallum. Putting a different word on it doesn't cheapen Toney at his peak.
GGG never beat anyone worth ****. Jacobs, Lemieux and Derevyanchenko don't make you great. Having 9 title defences or so is all well and good, but 6 were against much smaller guys, low ranked fighters or plain and simply poor opponents. Toney going 32-0-2 at the weight, beating Mike McCallum, Michael Nunn and Reggie Johnson is much more impressive than anything GGG has done. You say Toney gets looked at with rose tinted spectacles, but surely the opposite can be said for GGG. Most look at him like they did on the come up, as a fighter of limitless potential who didn't get any big breaks. But he's had breaks, he enough elite opposition to know that he barely beats them. Call me when GGG KOs someone as good as Michael frickin Nunn. And you haven't said what happens in the fight. Having a good engine and firepower? Toney, on form, had an excellent engine and wasn't KOd while old, fat and fighting at ****in heavyweight. Firepower means very little in a fight with Toney.
I'll take the guys GGG beat over the guys Toney beat at 160. "Middleweight champion Gennady Golovkin tied Bernard Hopkins’ longstanding record of 20 successful title defenses last Saturday night with his 2nd round KO victory over Vanes Martirosyan on HBO at the StubHub Center in Carson, California." https://www.boxingnews24.com/2018/05/ggg-ties-bernard-hopkins-record-of-20-title-defenses/ Toney's first 24 fights were pure trash, and I include Sanderline Williams, the guy that held him to a draw. If you want to look at a record that's padded almost as much as fat boy Toney himself, then look here: https://boxrec.com/en/proboxer/1437 On his 24th fight Toney was feasting on the corpse of a debut fighter, ffs! The first real challenge he faced was Merqui Sosa and that was no easy ride whatsoever for Toney. Toney's 32 wins are mostly padding. Then I guess we disagree. Those three are good but he barely beat them whereas Golovkin has a whole roster of solid wins. At age 36+ Golovkin, on form, was fast, tireless and destructive. Which was almost every outing until he started to age and visibly slow down. I don't have to cherrypick "Golovkin that one time he fought Proksa was on form" because he was invariably conditioned and reliable as a metronome. A record like Toney's that's spotted with iffy outings insinuates that maybe the fighter actually struggled with lower opposition more than his fans think.
Golovkin's biggest advantage over opponents is his power which means little against Toney who was able to take shots from full size HW's and not get floored or even seriously hurt. So how does Golovkin win this ? He ain't outboxing, outworking or overpowering JT and there's a major discrepancy in speed between the two (go watch some of Toney's fights at MW, handspeed was ATG). Toney's only weakness at MW was inconsistency so that's GGG's only real chance here. Toney UD
You'll take Derevyanchenko, Jacobs and Lemieux over McCallum, Nunn and Reggie? Lol what? The WBA minor title isn't a real belt. It's a bauble given out willy-nilly. Of an actual title, he has nine successful defences. And GGG's isn't? Toney didn't have Golovkin's long ass amateur career either. Sanderline Williams is a better opponent than any GGG fought in his first 25 fights. And Toney was inconsistent, you take the best version of him here. Not the green version who was completely unknown. Like who? GGG doesn't have a win even arguably as good as those guys which isn't a close, controversial decision. Tough break. Yet he was slower than Toney, couldn't KO him and had a lower workrate. Given that Toney turned up in shape for all of his major fights, neither do I. If Toney respects GGG, and I'm sure that he would, then he shows up in tip top condition. Which means he beats GGG embarrassingly. You still haven't said what happens in a fight between them.
Macklin, Murray, Stevens, Geale, Proksa, Brook ... the list goes on. Golovkin's resume is full of solid names. If your opinion makes it so, then you can add Canelo x2 to Golovkin's wins, because I saw Golovkin beat him twice. Golovkin's resume at 160 is less bumtastic than Toney's, yes. Good point. Golovkin could have easily had 5 more prime years as a pro if he'd begun earlier. Hagler had retired at 32. We're literally comparing the career of an old MW (GGG) to that of a young one (Toney). Hell no he's not. Ouma, Proksa and Simon are all as good or better. The difference being Golovkin destroyed all of those. Then I demand that you take the best version of Golovkin, not the old, slow version. He was faster than Toney, would put him on his ass and outwork him. .... at a burger eating contest. I think its simple. Toney gets outworked, and out jabbed and taken apart just like old man Golovkin took Canelo apart. I think Golovkin's power and intensity wears him down and that Toney finishes poorly. I think that Toney was too big framed and undisciplined for 160 and that 160 suits GGG to the bone. I think that Toney was better at higher weights. I think that if Toney thinks Merqui Sosa hit hard then he's going to have a whole new vista of pain open up before him against Golovkin.
Only Geale there was a top fighter, and gven where he was at the time of his career, I wouldn't write home about that one either. No, not my opinion, the entire boxing community's opinion. And I'm pretty certain it's the WBA's ruling that their super belt is required to be undisputed. So the WBA's 'opinion' as well. And as did I, but I also saw Toney beat McCallum twice, he was much better a fighter than Canelo. I was going to. But for stylistic insight, you have to look at the elite fighters he fought, which only happened when he was old. Based on what? Williams didn't win many, but he always gave fighters problems. The version who fought Benn, Reggie and Toney was better than those three hands down. Proska was losing to Hope before GGG, and an old Mora afterward. He'd be very lucky to go the distance with Benn, let alone deserve a decision. Simon was losing to journeymen when GGG beat him, and Ouma? At that point? Golovkin destroyed them because they were easy to destroy, Sanderline wasn't. Toney schooled him like three months later. And it should be said that Toney fought 10 times in 1990 alone. He clearly wasn't in peak condition, and still proved himself infinitely better. Okay, sure thing. Again, tough break. It's no-one's fault but GGGs for staying in the amateurs. And while it may not his own fault no-one wanted to fight him, it's GGG who bears the criticism that his resume is ass for a guy who supposedly beats every elite middleweight ever, and draws comparisons with Hagler, of all people. Is that before or after he walked on water and cured cancer? Nice dodge. When did he take Canelo apart? He out-jabbed Canelo, who was the one landing the better punches. Well I guess that's all fair enough, but I don't recall a green Toney losing more than four rounds to Sosa. And I don't recall him being hurt for a second. Toney at his peak came on strong late, not finished late. Look at the fights with Reggie and Nunn. He was on fire the further it went on. I agree Toney was better higher up (well, better at 168 than at 160). But how on earth does GGG's slower hands and predictable jab consistently land on Toney? Toney would light GGG's body up, and counter his jab silly.
To throw GGG a bone, he could've been top five in Toney's era. But he certainly wouldn't beat McCallum or Toney. He could beat Nunn, Watson & Kalambay, although I doubt it. Jackson, McClellan, Reggie, Eubank & Benn are guys he'd beat.
I always thought GGG was overrated in his own time, yet underrated historically. Judging from the comments in this thread, maybe I'm wrong. (I'm the Han Solo who voted for draw, btw) Time for me to take another look at the 90s guys. I just wish the current fighters would fight more often, you know?
I would too, but I think GGG's fan friendly style earns a decision, whether he deserves or not. Close fight.
Indeed, Geale is quite nondescript, overall, at any rate. Even in his prime, he couldn't overcome his main domestic rival, Mundine, who was past his best, by that stage (winning a rematch several years later by virtue of the fact Mundine was pretty much shot, by then). By the time he faced Golovkin, Geale was himself over-the-hill and had not long since lost a decision to the fragile type, Darren Barker. And yet, Geale ranks among one of Golovkin's best wins. Shocking, really. There's no room to criticize Toney's opposition at 160, when compared with that of Golovkin's.
^Opinion. And yet "Gennady Golovkin honored to equal Bernard Hopkins with 20th straight 160-pound defense May 7, 2018 - CARSON, Calif. -- Unified middleweight world champion Gennady Golovkin had just demolished late replacement opponent Vanes Martirosyan by violent second-round knockout on Saturday night at the StubHub Center and was reveling in his triumph at the post-fight news conference." https://www.espn.com/boxing/story/_...kins-20th-consecutive-160-pound-title-defense And yet "Gennady Golovkin scored his 38th victory and 34th via knockout over Vanes Martirosyan at the 1:53 mark of the second round to win his historic 20th title defense – tying him with Bernard Hopkins for the most in middleweight history." https://www.wbaboxing.com/boxing-news/ggg-records-historic-20th-title-defense I think Canelo is a deck-stacking slimeball, but I don't doubt his skills for a second. Canelo is the closest stylistically to Toney and I think even old GGG handled him well. I think a younger Golovkin takes him to pieces and judging by the way Canelo dodged him for a long time, so does he. Based on their records and the eye test on film. Williams was awkward but he should never have troubled a guy as good as Toney. 1) ... or Golovkin was that good 2) Williams lost practically everytime he stepped up as well as to a bunch of nonentities. A guy like Simon was a pretty solid fighter when he fought Golovkin, to say nothing of Proksa who some people compared favourably to Pirog at the time. Look I'm going to cut this short. We evidently have opposing opinions on this matter and that's OK. I'm not going to unlock my casket of spite for you, because you're a good poster and I usually agree with you anyway. A good day to ya.
your points are so weak and make no sense. Toney was a very busy fighter back in the day, he was not fully prepared for every fight. we know he can handle busy pressure guys when he is right. (Williams, Jirov for example).
