Muhammad Ali (Foreman fight) vs Larry Holmes (Cooney fight)

This is an interesting one...1974 Ali had just beaten Frazier and then Foreman. Which other heavyweight could have done that? However, styles make fights and Holmes had an exceptional style. Against any other all time great, I would favour this version of Ali but against 1982 Holmes...it would be a tough fight.

 

Well said and I agree. A prime Ali I take as he had the legs to move 15 rounds and even in their real fight when the very slow Ali moved around the ring Larry just followed, never throwing a punch until Ali stopped. This wasn't Lar being benevolent, it was a weakness in his repitore none of his opponents had the ability to capitalize on, the prime Ali would have.

 

82 Holmes is basically prime Holmes. I even favor him over a 67 Ali, let alone a 74 Ali

 

Absolutely!

I would say Holmes on points.

Only a 64-67 Ali defeats Holmes comfortable.

 

I wouldn't agree with the last point. 67 Ali had the movement, stamina and speed to beat even a prime Holmes. That is why they are number 1 and 2 in my list of greats post Louis.

 

This. To sharp for Ali

 

No chance he beats him comfortably, he’s facing a man with a better jab for starters. This goes tits up for 64-67 Ali

 

True, he had speed an great reflexes, but his fundamentals and technique are not as great as Holmes's.

 

Eddie Futch,whom Holmes was trained by for a while,felt that Larry was already past prime by 1982 and thought that he would have stopped Gerrie Cooney a few rounds earlier had it been a couple of years previous.

 

I feel that Larry was starting to show his seams with the Snipes fight...I just can't see the same Holmes who beat Ali letting that right hand get to him. But it became more obvious during the Cooney fight...to my eyes Cooney was done in the second round, Holmes made a tactical error not finishing him then. That error in-itself was imo a sign of age (and its attendant cautiousness).

I see that age-borne cautiousness to in the M. Spinks fights, only exponentially increased due to its occuring a few years later. Holmes could have stayed on Spinks so much more, especially in the second fight. Age hindered him (though in most fans' eyes he won that 2nd fight free and clear).

 

Ali decision.

 

I'd go with Ali. At this time Ali was still on his game and on a good night was capable of beating just about any heavyweight in history as he proved when he beat Foreman. A fight with Holmes would look a lot different and certainly could go either way but I think Ali may be able to steal a round or two more in a fight that would definitely go the distance. Holmes I think would be a tough fight for Ali at any stage of Ali's career but I do consider Ali the best heavyweight and would favor him to beat Holmes on a good night by controlling the pace and stealing a few more rounds.

 

Ali always finds a way.

 

Insightful post, Bokaj. I like Holmes a lot. He was a deeply formidable fighter. You watch him in his 1979-'81 pomp and wonder how any heavyweight could beat him. But even in his prime he was prone to strange lapses of concentration. We all remember how Shavers and then Snipes separated him from his senses. Ali never went down as heavily as that - and, let us be honest, can anyone here even imagine him going down as heavily as that? He was less aggressive than Holmes, sure. He was also cooler and, even when he was at his most lethargic (against Jimmy Young, say) you knew he would not be placed in serious trouble. Respect to Holmes for getting back on track so quickly after being floored by Shavers and Snipes. What a warrior he was! Thing is, Shavers was unable to do that to an Ali who was years past prime and who had faced opponent after opponent from the house of terror for well over ten years. Holmes and Ali were both GREAT. I just happen to think Ali was the greater of the two.

 

Ali did find a way (semi core strategy - rope a dope) for Foreman. A “way” that no one envisaged or predicted, including even his own sparring partner Holmes.

Even if Ali couldn’t cook up a similar rabbit out of the hat strategy for Holmes, at least psychologically, there would always be reserve for same, even in Holmes’ mind.

Ali brought a lot more of his general abilities to the table in Zaire than just the rope a dope which did play its part. However, the effectiveness and applied duration of the rope-a might be a tad exaggerated for its lone role.

Ali did have a great 3 fight run, Norton, Frazier and Foreman. He was considerately, trained, conditioned and strategised for each opponent. 212 lb, so called dancing weight for Ken and Joe plus the punch and clutch routine especially for Frazier.

Ali’s claim that he originally planned to dance v Foreman is possibly contradicted by his coming in at 216 1/2 lb. It seems at least, Ali also focused on strength and power in his prep for the Foreman fight. A flat footed Ali was literally punching very hard with almost each and every shot.

I think Holmes would be relatively cautious for at least the first 2-3 rds, imo Larry sometimes over-exercised his early rd caution and I think he’d be wary of Ali’s possible “tricks” anyway. Ali could take advantage of Holmes’ delay. I can see it settling down to a measure of Ali’s remaining skills vs those of Larry (ala Ali v Norton), no garnishes or tricks.

I think Ali still had enough in his overall skill set to take Larry via close decision. Don’t know if Ali would want to be as light as 212 lb or as heavy as 216 1/2 lb. Perhaps something in between for some dancing and some hard flat footed punching. Anyway, Ali would definitely be very prepared and well strategised as he saw fit.