In the Ring With Jack Dempsey - Part I: The Making of a Champion

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by apollack, Sep 16, 2020.



  1. Senya13

    Senya13 Boxing Junkie Full Member

    12,161
    1,899
    Jul 11, 2005
    I have the book and other than Maxine's interview to SF Bulletin a couple of months later, there's no other "evidence" for Dempsey throwing the fight.
     
    Mendoza, The Morlocks and klompton2 like this.
  2. guilalah

    guilalah Well-Known Member Full Member

    2,306
    244
    Jul 30, 2004
    I've so far read through the rounds of Dempsey - Miske I. Regarding Dempsey - Flynn I , Pollack presents what people of the time were saying about the quick KO of Dempsey, as well as how perceptions of his subsequent performances were influenced by that fights controversy. Pollack also notes how the unsettledness of Jack's life at that time (finances X Maxine/marriage tumult) _could_ have provided motives for Jack to drop the fight; but Pollack also advances reasons to think the fight, and the KO1 of Dempsey, legit.
    apollack (Mr. Pollack) is encouraged to correct me if I mis-state, but I didn't think his book advocated for any particular view on Dempsey-Flynn I any where near so strongly as, e.g., he argued for Corbett-McCoy as being a on-the-level fight. (On the 'Win by KO' FBpage, I praised Pollack for resisting the temptation to 'fill in' the dark/blurry/ambigious/contraindicative places of Dempsey's life/career).
    Again, if apollack feels I am misconstruing, I welcome his correction; but I do not believe, on my own reading, that he strongly advocated either for or against Dempsey's having taken a dive against Flynn, only that he did his typical thorough job of reporting contemporary accounts of the contest, along with such subsequent speculation as occured in Dempsey's career through the successful challenge of Willard, and also that he tried to cnsider the rationales for conflicting views on the Flynn KO1 of Dempsey.
     
    louis54 and apollack like this.
  3. louis54

    louis54 Well-Known Member Full Member

    2,187
    1,295
    Mar 20, 2013
    Pollack gives the reader the information but always leaves it to the reader to decide;
    Jack dillon one of the toughest men who ever lived, called dempsey a fistic " miracle " a ring freak whose "taps" carried more crushing force than anyone he had ever fought
     
    reznick and apollack like this.
  4. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

    27,511
    7,384
    Dec 31, 2009
    I have just bought the book. So far it is excellent. So far I’m really learning things I didn’t know about Dempsey and more details about his early fights.
     
    apollack likes this.
  5. guilalah

    guilalah Well-Known Member Full Member

    2,306
    244
    Jul 30, 2004
    I've thought a bit more about the post I made yesterday. While I don't think Mr. Pollack pronouncedly advocated for or against the idea of Dempsey having thrown Flynn I, he does make an effort to develop arguments for contesting views of the outcome. I found myself more willing, than previously, to consider the possibility that Dempsey did throw the fight. Probably that is because I had previously tended against that view, disliking to think Jack crooked, and happy to speculate that, given the very considerable delay in the contest, Jack had entered the ring cold and gotten caught. I think Mr. Pollack made me confront aspects of Dempsey's circumstances and possibly of erratic character at that time which make it plausible, if not persuasive or compelling, that he may have taken a dive. But i also think that if I'd gone into the reading tending to think Jack _had_ taken the dive, Mr. Pollack would probably have gotten me to reconsider the view that he got straight clocked.
    Also, I am reminded of apollack's also excellent book on Marvin Hart. I think no one reading that book would fail to let that Hart was a tough, durable, game hombre; yet he also suffered a KO1 on the way up, if I remember correctly. As Pollack notes, sometimes these things happen.
     
    Seamus, apollack and louis54 like this.
  6. he grant

    he grant Historian/Film Maker Full Member

    24,221
    7,558
    Jul 15, 2008
    The more I read the more it become clear that no one wanted any part of Harry Wills ... any attempt to pigeon hole him as some sort of lumbering , slow made for Dempsey opponent is revising history ... Wills was for real and he was ducked for sure ..
     
    BitPlayerVesti and Seamus like this.
  7. louis54

    louis54 Well-Known Member Full Member

    2,187
    1,295
    Mar 20, 2013
    Wills sparred with Fulton
    Ducked dempsey when approached !! But bill tate didn't
    Kearns manager of of wills and dempsey " dempsey could have handled two of
    him before breakfast. "
    Put the blame where it belongs... The rioters in 1910
     
  8. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

    69,970
    23,858
    Feb 15, 2006
    Bingo!

    The man has been whitewashed out of history!
     
  9. The Morlocks

    The Morlocks Boxing Junkie Full Member

    8,717
    8,910
    Nov 21, 2009
    Great
     
  10. The Morlocks

    The Morlocks Boxing Junkie Full Member

    8,717
    8,910
    Nov 21, 2009
    Griffith KO1 by Carter
     
  11. louis54

    louis54 Well-Known Member Full Member

    2,187
    1,295
    Mar 20, 2013
    Wills used to be highly ranked but nowadays who knows
     
  12. klompton2

    klompton2 Boxing Junkie Full Member

    10,913
    5,215
    Feb 10, 2013
    You saying Wills ducked Dempsey???
     
    Mendoza, JohnThomas1 and mrkoolkevin like this.
  13. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

    55,255
    10,264
    Jun 29, 2007

    I agree with this, and I'm still not convinced Dempsey vs. Willard was on the level. His manager said it wasn't. More importantly to me, Willard thinks something was in his gloves ( not the inspected wraps ), and Dempsey ran out of the ring like a thief exposed to the light in his moment of glory when he though the won the fight / heavyweight championship of the world when 99.999% would be celebrating.
     
  14. louis54

    louis54 Well-Known Member Full Member

    2,187
    1,295
    Mar 20, 2013
    Kearns made a take on all comers offers to any and all fighters on earth to spar with his boy Dempsey and Fulton, wills, morris etc were nmentioned...
    Through the years three maybe four world colored heavyweight champions sparred with dempsey, for good money,...bill Tate, george godfrey, larry gains. Not sure if jim johnson was worlds colored heavyweight champion but he did fight bfor the worlds Championship...
    Dempsey sparred with everbody from kid willams and harry greb to Jack renult and tom loughran as well as dozens more and those above
    Funny how wills didnt and that wills never fought gibbons, tunney, greb, godfrey... Wills was a terrific fighter but not suicidal enough to spar with dempsey hitting full steam
    Wills was next to dempsey best in world
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2020
    choklab likes this.
  15. KasimirKid

    KasimirKid Well-Known Member Full Member

    1,929
    2,806
    Jun 1, 2018
    So Wills was supposed to jeopardize his standing as Dempsey's most dangerous foe by sparring with Dempsey for nothing? This is so weak that it is not worth bringing up. He was the leading contender for most of Dempsey's tenure and he deserved the shot with pay. It is ill-advised to suggest otherwise,
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2020