I don’t agree Thomas or Tubbs were bums overall..but can anyone make a case for them being serious threats to the title around the time Tyson fought them? Thomas had not beat a good fighter since he beat Weaver around the time Tyson was turning pro. Tubbs had not beat a decent fighter since beating Page..so long ago, who had already lost to Bey and Berbick. These guys were still names but in the scheme of things literally dug up for Tyson.
Tubbs almost beat Bowe years later. He wasn't shot, just not relevant because the contenders were in line for Tyson and not fighting each other. Same thing with Thomas. The fact that he survived the 1st round and then went on to start turning the fight around and winning 3 rounds in a row before Tyson dropped him for the ONLY time in his career tells me he was still pretty good that night. Another important point. Tyson BOXED(not slugged) with Tubbs on even terms before he KO'd him which to me was very impressive. He also Boxed with tucker and Biggs. A Marciano or Frazier type would usually just use brute force to destroy a slickster/mover. If you watch closely he no longer did that with Williams and Bruno he was leading with power shots instead of working behind the jab, making him more beatable and in hindsight it was signaling his decline as a technician
Everyone seems to forget that Tyson if indeed was the self proclaimed baddest man on the planet should've requested a rematch immediately because he had the excuse of lack of preparation.
Everyone seems to forget that Douglas decided not to rematch Tyson and took a record setting payday against Holyfield. It's embarrassing that there are casuals pushing false narratives out there.
Douglas at his best was a far better fighter than Razor. Razor was a one handed fighter who telegraphed everything and swung from the rafters. He was also terrible at putting punches together. Tyson was far too good for him and would have been in Tokyo. Douglas certainly had the power to hurt Tyson (who took a very good punch) and had him reeling on multiple occasions before delivering the coup de grace. Douglas had better footwork than Tucker for reasons I've already gone into. Tucker was ungainly comparatively. The others did not bring to the table what Buster did. Holmes looked terrible. Tyson tried to come in quick early on and Douglas kept thwarting his efforts via numerous means. His speed skipping back was insane for a big man and he mixed this with lateral movement and at other times he stepped in himself to stifle Tyson's attempt to find his optimum punching range. He also gave Tyson multiple angles and moved his head. He also punched, and not only in one's and two's. His defensive instincts were fantastic. The more i look at it the more brilliant Douglas' efforts were. He was such a natural fighter. If only he had that training determination and grit for the battle at other times. A stiff breeze knocked Carl over. Both he and Tucker are somewhat gangly and uncoordinated compared to Douglas on song. Not as natural.
Agree with JT. There is zero comparison between Douglas and Ruddock. Ruddock was overly reliant on his big left and did not put together the fast, accurate and graceful combinations that Douglas did. Even Tokyo Tyson would have put away a one dimensional slugger like Ruddock. Carl Williams was so open to left hooks, an amateur boxer could have put him away with a good left hook. No comparison to Douglas other than them both having great jabs. Douglas was not nearly as vulnerable to any one punch as Williams was to a left hook. Douglas's offense was levels above Tucker, Biggs, 38 year old Holmes or the heavyweight version of Spinks. Not just one or two levels above but many levels above IMO.
This is a very good post, and I agree with most of it. Tubbs did indeed still have enough talent to mess Riddick Bowe around much later on..but Riddick was a mere prospect back then and Tubbs was able to cheat him into a sparring session pace. His incentive to tackle Tyson with any seriousness is reduced by the fact his trainer walked out on him “for being in no condition to fight”. Tubbs also failed to meet a cash incentive by the promotion to lose weight after that point in camp. It’s all pretty damning stuff toward showing Tubbs was not interested enough to fight Tyson. Tyson did box very well against Biggs and Tubbs. Tyson did indeed box well at times with Tucker in a more competitive fight - and he probably had to because unlike Thomas, Tubbs, Holmes and Bruno, Tucker was coming off fights against live competition going into his fight with Tyson. Smith was coming off live competition too. He lasted the distance as well. Of all his title fights, Douglas, Smith, Tucker and possibly Williams were the only guys beating live opponents before meeting Tyson. And that goes a long way.
Remember the thread were you argued bibles about how Michael Spinks was the man to beat and Tony Tucker wasn´t? I´ll give you a hint: https://www.boxingforum24.com/threads/tony-tucker-vs-michael-spinks-in-1987-who-wins.616849/page-2 Pretty sure @swagdelfadeel knows some more of that choklab honesty ^^ Beside that, what´s the matter with Tysons camp for Tucker? He got a little heavy between two months and two days in the time frame between Thomas and the Tucker bout. After Spinks, he fought three times including Douglas in a time frame were he´d accomplish a 34 - 0 for the badest man on the planet lol. In contrast, thats seven months out of the ring after he got a single round inside with Carl Williams. Even the NY Times was reporting about MT beeing the man to beat himself: https://www.nytimes.com/1990/02/06/sports/sports-of-the-times-is-tyson-sabotaging-himself.html
Yet a under trained and unmotivated Tyson had him almost out of there........if he would have had him down earlier in the round chances that he finishes him off or gets a quick ref induced stoppage are significant. Buster was the better man that night and won fair and square. IMO. a fully focused and prepped Tyson with a competent corner would have had a better game plan, would not have allowed Buster to get brave and eventually get to him later and finished him off in a great fight........as above , he almost did. Some posters believe that Buster would have always beaten Tyson...........Buster disagrees because him and his team declined a re match claiming being disrespected by King ......when in truth they knew lightning never strikes twice and had zero desire to meet Tyson in the Ring ever again ........ instead conning Steve Wynn into a mega pay day while showing up in his usual mind set
Yeah, I stand by that. Spinks was on paper the man to beat, even if in hindsight, he turned out to be not that much of a test by the time it came down to it. What I said was nobody knew who Tucker was. He couldn’t in 1987 be favoured over Spinks when there was so little to go on him.he had not beat a good fighter yet. Without hindsight, in 1987, nobody could know Tucker was even that level. I even said “Now we know that Tucker wound up doing better against Tyson than Spinks did. But that is with hindsight. Spinks was truly awful in that fight anyway.” I think you need to understand what hindsight means. I clearly said “in hindsight” Spinks turned out not to be a threat...because by the time Tyson got to him it had been a long time since Spinks beat Larry Holmes...the last world level fighter Spinks beat at heavyweight. In that other thread I was more concerned with the odd selection of Tucker and Douglas to produce a new champion for Tyson to knock over. The IBF wanted the money that a Tyson fight brought, and they wanted to dump Spinks over his selection of Gerry Cooney as a challenger. As it turned out, Douglas and Tucker, plucked from obscurity as they were, wound up being fair level fighters. But my gripe was really with their selection for a vacant “world” title fight. Spinks was the real champion. what’s the matter with Tysons camp for Tucker? It was well documented that Tyson was out partying, disappeared in Albany for two weeks when he was supposed to be training...and only came back to camp because Jimmy Jacobs pleaded with him to go through with the fight. Tyson wanted to retire. He was going through a personal crisis of some kind ahead of the Tucker fight. He wanted to pull out and started partying in the hope the fight would be called off. But of course it couldn’t.
I’m pretty sure Ruddock would find Douglas’s chin and that would be it. Douglas fought well but didn’t have to deal with midrange hooks and bodyshots coming at him. Tyson is a midrange fighter but was wading in against Douglas. You can count the left hooks in the first round against Douglas compared to Tucker. You’ll be surprised.
I believe its a little overlooked how quick even a battered Tyson was able to drop Douglas. I read some posts here stating Douglas was better in every aspect of the game than Tucker, Thomas, Berbick etc. were. Thats not true. I´d say that Douglas had the best jab of the bunch of opponents Tyson faced, a little better than Thomas, Tucker, Biggs, Tubbs, Holmes and Williams. However, he did not have the best feet. Tucker and Biggs were ahead of him, maybe even slick Tony Tubbs, he´s more on the level of an old Holmes, who could still move at times, maybe a little better than aging Larry. He got better movement than Thomas, Berbick and the rest (apart from maybe Tillis). Imo he gets a little underrated at power. I was pretty surprised how quick Douglas had Ferguson all over the place in the first round, but not Smith, Ruddock or Bruno type power. He was maybe a little ahead of Tucker in that department, eventually due to more agression. So no, Douglas was not ahead of Tony Tucker in a direct comparison, he got less legs and less chin, but a better jab and maybe some more power. Thomas, Biggs, Brunos, Williams and old Holmes jab get a litte underrated here, prob. because they had difficulties getting into the fight and Douglas didn´t. And thats imo the difference between a MT who ate jabs and a version who pressured his opponents on the backfoot with no time and room to establish a jab. Yes we had that. Like 6 weeks camp and two weeks trouble. Thats the same than not beeing @ camp in a period of seven months outside the ring? I´ve said it dozens of times and repeat myself here: Whatever someone is doing, you´ll do it as good as you repeat these things all over again. No matter what you do. Call it intensity as a measurement of actions/time. More boxing per time --> Better boxer. Imo Tyson was a product of drilled intensity. A kid with who could rise quickly with a routine like, maybe quicker than any other boxer we even know. Alot of Tysons "god given talent" was artificial. For some people a drill like that is productive, other stagnate quickly and need more time. Put that intensity on Riddick Bowe to create an ATG as well. Tyson was a "drill and take" or "leave and fade" like fighter. Rooney, Jacobs and Cayton knew Tyson was a product as long as they could keep their routine up. They could not manoeuvre a champion like that with one fight ever 8 months.
