Age can be deceptive. Williams was having his 29th bout against Sly Jones. How May fights had Tyson had at that sort of age? Williams had been decked twice by Sly Jones. Between that shattering loss to Satterfeild and the first walloping against Liston, Williams fought absolutely nobody with a pulse. A period of five years where he was only active for just over half that time. Just target practice against hand picked victims. After williams was destroyed by Liston he fought no other punchers until after the shooting. He drew with Machen and lost to Terrell. The 12 fights he had between being knocked out by Liston and Losing to Terrell one fight was the draw with Machen. One guy was a 13 fight novice. 3 were coming directly off a loss. Of the remaining 8 only Terrell of their first fight had won more than two in a row from their last 6 fights. You say good fighters avoided him. But it could just as easily be said he was looking for easy wins? I’m sorry that you think it is pathetic to bring out these facts. However, it seems to me you are the one inventing scenarios. Having a one man campaign trying to convince yourself Williams is a “would be champion”. He wasn’t. trying to pretend I am the one with an agenda is wearing a bit thin. Terrell might have held the WBA title but it was really only for political reasons wasn’t it? Terrell did not beat the best heavyweight in the world to get that title did he? All he did was fight a guy who was a way outside of that status...another non champion level contender. now it is a fact that Williams went 1-1 with Terrell. But it also a fact that Terrell was never regarded the best heavyweight in the world...no matter what the WBA said. as for Williams, I actually give him respect for the run he had after the shooting. Although his supporters claim it is unfair to judge williams after this point wiliams actually fought a better class of men from this point on. I do not believe he was ever good enough to beat anybody he lost to after the shooting since Williams was quite consistent up to that level... which was proven with his wins over Terry Daniels and Ted Gullick right at the end of his career which are as good As any of his actual wins before he took a bullet.
He was 19 years old. Not even you, can possibly be as biased as to say he was in his prime. Williams was chasing Jones around the ring before the fight was abrubtly called off to move on to the main event (A Marciano fight, his opponent escapes me however though it may have been Charles) Untrue he had decent wins including one over John Holman, a fierce puncher who had an impressive KO victim list consisting of Ezzard Charles, Elmer Ray, Cesar Brion, Boardwalk Billy Smith, Bob Satterfield, Willie Bean, Larry Watson, Julio Mederos. He challenged Floyd Patterson, and fought a peak Liston twice (who nobody wanted to fight once) fought the 2nd rated HEAVY, and fought numerous ranked fighters., so I don't think he avoided anybody. He was a feared puncher in his prime. This is an undeniable fact " Here's a contemporary news article right before his first fight with Liston. "Nobody among the heavyweights will fight Cleveland Williams or "Charles (Sonny) Liston, so they will fight each other here Wednesday " https://www.newspapers.com/clip/51391573/hartford-courant/ He WAS in line for a title shot. He earned it by beating Billy Daniels who'd just gotten a win over the WBA #1 contender Jones. He would've fought Terrell for the WBA champion which was a very winnable fight for him as he had a good track record against Terrell, and arguably had his number. Playing the victim again are we? Their are numerous posters here, I could easily name 20 off the top of my hand (some of whom don't even particularily like each other) who have at one point or another called you out on your laughable bias, and dishonesty. Terrell was the best heavyweight of the mid-60s not named Ali. I know. You made the laughable claim that some of the men he beat at the end of his career, he would've never beaten in his prime Chuvalo, O'Holloran, Al Lewis, Foster, Jones, Clearoux. These are the men (with the exception of Ali) who beat Wiliams after the shooting. You don't think a prime Williams would've beaten any of these men? Williams victims had wins over many of these men, yet you don't think "he was ever good enough to beat anybody he lost to after the shooting". He was also much more proven than any of those men. Please make me laugh by saying otherwise.
No I don’t think Williams would necessarily beat Chuvalo in his prime. Or Bob Cleroux, or Mac Foster. These men had wins equal big wins or greater than Cleveland Williams best wins. It’s 50-50 if he would get past aJack O’Halloran in his best. Ernie Terrell later improved to beat Chuvalo but he also improved enough to beat Williams himself so that kind of erases that example. I am unaware that Williams beat somebody capable of beating Mac Foster or Al Jones or Cleroux. Williams fought for an extremely long period. An interesting period that ran from the Marciano days all the way to George Foreman. I give him that. And throughout that time he could always win at one level just below world class apart from a few results just before the shooting where he kind of matched the top contenders without standing out. You are not going to tell me he surpassed the level of Machen or Terrell whilst they were top rated because he did not beat either of them. He outpointed briefly ranked Billy Daniels..which was hardly a mesmerising win. Then he went back to the level where he always was good at winning the D grade level. Where people enjoyed seeing him knockout dudes in Texas. yeah after 29 fights I accept 19 year old Williams was not yet in the physical prime he later was when he outpointed Billy Daniels for his most famous win. A celebrated win that nobody has forgotten the mesmerising talent he showed outpointing Daniels before he got shot. john Holman was having his last fight, he had been knocked out seven times...most recently by Alex Miteff. At one time he had beaten Charles but he also lost to Charles in a rematch. Like Williams, Holman had been knocked out by Bob Satterfeild. Twice in fact. He was also knocked out by Marciano sparring partner Toxie Hall. So yes, it was a decent win...it showed he could beat one guy also knocked out by satterfeild, but was John Holman ever better than the men Williams lost to after the shooting? Bob Cleroux, George Chuvalo? I don’t think he was. ...or was Holman, of his last ever fight, even as good as Ted Gullick and Terry Daniels?
Rocky would have an exciting go at the start given Cleveland's fast start but ultimately Rocky would put his lights out. A better fighter. A tougher fighter. A harder puncher. A fighter better at landing his big punches.
Candy ass McDaniels? I was resisting the urge to mention him that time. It’s like a disease with me. The management of Williams found some colourfully named victims. Some of them were even pro boxers.
I thought he looked worse against LaStarza. The first part of the fight he was getting outboxed badly. At least against Don he was landing some bombs
Since you're into comparing performances against the same opponents as a gauge of who would win in their prime let's do it together. Miteff: He was 7th ranked when Williams battered him, and stopped him in the fifth. "Cleveland (Big Cat) Williams, who shattered the title hopes of 7th ranked Alex Miteff with a 5th round TKO, set up a howl today for a shot at champion Floyd Patterson. If Williams ever looked as though he deserved a shot at the title, it was Tuesday night. He took command of the fight from Miteff from the start, opened a bad cut over his left eye in the 2nd, floored him for eight counts in the 3rd and 4th, and was beating him badly when referee Ernie Taylor mercifully ended it 1:32 deep into the 5th." Chuvalo on the other hand did not fair as well. In the first fight, he barely escaped with a draw, which actually would've been a decision for Miteff if he hadn't had a point docked for a low blow. In the rematch, he barely got by with a split decision in his hometown, in a fight many thought he lost. "Chuvalo was clearly out-boxed most of the fight" Source: https://www.newspapers.com/clip/67457602/the-des-moines-register/ Ernie Terrell: Chuvalo was widely outpointed by Terrell by scores of 72-65, 73-65, and 69-65. The same Terrell was stopped by Williams while near his prime, then a mere year later taken the distance winning a controversial SD (in which the AP actually had Williams a clear winner), in which he arguably got dropped but the referee failed to recognize it as such saving Terrell from a decision loss. Ali: Chuvalo was widely outpointed by scores of 74-63, 74-62, 74-62. Williams was a shell of himself after being shot, and went against an absolute peak Muhammad Ali and was dispatched. For obvious reasons this doesn't hold nearly as much weight as the aforementioned first two common opponents. Under your method of comparing common opponents, to see how well two fighters would do against each other, Williams is the clear winner no? Or are the rules different this time because they don't suit your agenda? Let's use another one of your infamous methods of gauging the greater win. Cleroux's best win were over: Roy Harris at the end of his career , another win over Harris, this time unranked in his last fight Chuvalo who he beat by a controversial SD in a snoozer which the United Press International actually scored 55-51 in Chuvalo's favor, while the Unofficial CP also scored it 57-55 in Chuvalo's favor, and another SD in the trilogy. A straw poll by Pat Curran of the Montreal Gazette had 7 of 10 ringside reporters scoring in favour of Chuvalo, agreeing with his own score 56-53. Miteff, who was now unranked and not at 100%, both thanks to the beating he'd received from Williams himself a month earlier. Cleroux still needed an extra 2 rounds two stop him. Foster had one of the most padded records I've ever seen. Seriously, he feasted on washed up has-beens, and never beat one ranked opponent in his career. Not one. His best wins are over an unranked, unfocused Spencer, who hadn't won a fight in over 2 years. "Spencer's another nobody now, just in there to take a little punishment as he can, get his seven-grand and go back to LA to raise hell until his money runs out", a washed up 40 year old Zora Folley, and an ultra-shot Cleveland Williams who came dangerously close to knocking him out in the 3rd round of their rematch, and certainly would've done so had he been 10 years younger. Honestly laughable you say Foster, and Cleroux have better wins than anyone Wiliams ever garnered, especially Foster who never beat a ranked opponent in his life. Almost as funny as the time you said Lamar Clark had a very comparable record to Williams. Lol if you actually believe that. O'Halloran barely beat an old washed up Williams, getting an SD while taking hellacious bombs on the way. So you think a Williams who was ten years younger, WITHOUT a bullet in his intestines which partially paralyzed him would do about the same as his ten year old washed up literally shot counterpart? You wonder why people accuse you of having an agenda. " Anyway's O'Holloran spoke very highly of Williams power even at that stage of his career. "Cleveland Williams hit me harder than any other human being.” "But he caught me with a punch earlier on in the fight and that was the hardest another human being ever hit me in my life." Not to mention O'Halloran was a huge puncher who Foreman ranked as the 4th hardest punching heavyweight he'd ever stepped in the ring with (funnily enough Williams was in the top 3) and he couldn't put the shell of Williams down let alone knock him out. Not bad for the chinless bum you depict him to be. Terrell didn't go from a no-hope to a world-class fighter in the year that separated his TKO loss to Williams, and his controversial SD victory over him. Agreed, a longevity Marciano could only dream of. Um he did beat Terrell, arguably twice. As a matter of fact he was arguably 3-0 against Machen and Terrell, with most feeling he beat Machen in their fight which was a majority draw, with the other judge having Williams a clear winner. You managed to misspell "mesmerizing" twice in five sentences. Bravo. Holman despite being at the end of his career was still a fierce puncher as a matter of fact, just a year prior he was involved in the elimination tourney for Rocky Marciano's title. Also, I noticed you mentioned Holman's loss to Satterfield while omitting his KO victory over him. Typical of you.
It's also worth bearing in mind that Williams didn't exactly have ideal preparation for the second Terrell fight. Incredibly, it took place just 11 days after he scored a gruelling 10th round tko over the limited but very tough Young Jack Johnson and bruised both hands in the process. Yes - Choklab wants to make out that because this was Holman's last fight he had nothing left. Although he had slipped out of the top 10 after losses to rival contenders, he was only 30 and still giving solid performances - most recently in his very close loss to 8th-ranked Alex Miteff, where he seemed on the brink of victory in the 6th and was ahead on points when finally stopped in the 9th. His career ended not because he was a worn-out old man but because his loss to Williams was so devastating - he lay unconscious in the ring for 3 minutes before he could be revived.
I just fact-checked this and confirmed not only you were correct about his fight with Jack Johnson being 11 days prior to Terrell, but less than a month before that was his fight against Daniels. Safe to say he wasn't 100% for either match-up. Of course Choklab, Mr. Honesty will never bring this up when mentioning the 2nd Terrell fight, and play stupid when someone does bring it to his attention. Yes, Choklab is trying to make it out like Holman was a paraplegic old man, in order to down-play Williams victory of him. In reality, Holman was coming off a very solid performance against the ranked Miteff when he nearly knocked him out. Here are some Contemporary news reports "the argentine battler was in serious trouble during three rounds before he stopped the Chicagoan" https://www.newspapers.com/clip/67460436/the-san-francisco-examiner/ "Miteff weighing 205 pounds, came back strong in the ninth stanza after taking a beating about the head in the previous three rounds of the scheduled 10-rounder. He chopped the veteran 204 pound Holman down with a flurry of punches of 2:33, adding fuel to the opinion held by many that he is a future championship contender" https://www.newspapers.com/clip/67460552/muncie-evening-press/ "Miteff, 206 was almost kayoed in the sixth when Holman caught him with a series of rights that sent the South American reeling to the ropes" https://www.newspapers.com/clip/67460697/the-daily-sentinel/ Not a bad performance at all against a rated, undefeated, Heavyweight.
It should also be noted, Johnson had went the distance with many top fighters of his era, including London, Mildenburger, Rischer, Machen, Summerlin. As a matter of fact, he had taken Terrell the distance twice before facing Williams. A very durable fighter. I believe he'd only been stopped once prior to facing Williams. He also had some decent wins, including kos over Folley and Charles, the latter of whom far easier and quicker than Marciano could manage just a year prior.
I will never understand the ridiculous man crush some have on Williams. All logic and critical thinking go out the window when his fan boys start drooling over his muscles. If those muscles had actually translated into important wins we could have a serious discussion about his merits but sadly the best win on his resume is a green Ernie Terrell which Terrell avenged. When splitting two fights with Terrell three years before Terrell was handed his paper championship is the best you can muster in a 94 fight 21 year career then you dont need to be having adoring fanboys arguing until they are blue in the face about your merits against all time great fighters.
