There isn’t any evidence that Williams would necessarily beat Cesar Brion or Charlie Norkus. I don’t think getting the draw with Machen necessarily ensures anything.
That's not my point. I was simply making the point that one does not magically become the #3 contender with an "abysmal record".
Yes. It certainly does. It says Williams was quite literally still a child, and shouldn't be judged for being taken the distance against a veteran and winning a lopsided decision. A more experienced Marciano had all kinds of trouble with Simmons just a year prior, and failed to drop him unlike Williams. 1. It's Omelio Agramonte. 2. By your own admission, Agramonte was washed up so Williams beating him was hardly any sign that he was a fully developed fighter. 3. So what if he couldn't stop Simmons, HE WAS A ****ING KID. He still didn't struggle nearly as much as Marciano did, and dropped him whereas Marciano failed to do so. Furthermore Marciano failed to stop the 12-16-2 who'd already been stopped multiple times by lesser fighters. He also failed to stop Lowry who was on a 7 fight losing streak, and was knocked out in one of them. I could go further but I've established my point. I... don't even know how to respond to this as it lacks any resemblance of sense.
I should reword...it’s abysmal only in the sense of being considered one of the best contenders ever.
A little first hand research ... just spoke w a buddy of mine named Bob Bozic .. besides being a pro who fought Holmes, ( lost a six round decision in Larry's 4th fight ) He was a long time sparring partner for George Chuvalo and also sparred with Quarry, Bonevana and others . Holmes told me Bozic was crazier and tougher than Tex Cobb. .. to this day Bob's close with Chiuvalo .. I asked him about Cleveland Williams and his words were " according to Chuvalo, Williams was a terrific puncher, a monster puncher. Everyone stayed away from him and Liston in the late 1950's. Marciano was considered good, not great but extremely well managed. Whenever there was talk about Marciano comebacks in the later 1950's , Liston was never mentioned. " His words and Chuvalo's.
Somebodies brothers cousins girlfriend told me Williams could punch really hard and was better than his record indicates.
Its even more ridiculous when you consider Chuvalo idolized Marciano and his manager Irving Ungerman brought him in to help Chuvalo. Marciano, not Cleveland ****ing Williams... Clearly Chuvalo, who now suffers from dementia, and Bozic who is famous around New York for his tall tales and didnt even turn pro until long after Williams had fallen out of the ratings and not long before he retired, dont know or remember this: [url]https://flic.kr/p/2kBofrG[/url] [url]https://flic.kr/p/2kBjFbm[/url] And Im sure Chuvalo wouldnt have any interest in pumping up the reputation of a guy he defeated long past his prime to make that win seem more important than it was... Im sure Chuvalo wanted to pattern himself off a guy who was just "good" but "well managed" (thats sarcasm) for the interior decorator who posted that crap.
You can find this exact topic of Williams vs Marciano countless times on this forum going back over a decade....and with the same people. Almost everyone in here now, contributed to those threads. Seamus, Hegrant, even McVey all picked Marciano over Williams. But just like now....the topic isn't about that. This topic is just another thread for people to bring up the same old negatives on Marciano....He got cut by Simmons, he didn't KO Lowe.....blah blah.
Williams was a decent contender. There's been lots of decent contenders over the last century. I'm not sure with the obsession with making all of them into uncrowned Champions born at the wrong time. If only Tua, Ruddock, Mercer, Lyle...etc got their chance at the Rock ....they would be Lineal Legends and we'd never have to hear about that 185 lb Italian ever again. Or maybe these guys just had a ceiling they would always hit. Screw this born under an unlucky star defeatist attitudes. A fighter can only be great on his own merit. If not, he just wasn't a great. This also falls under the boring "Let's put Marciano against a bigger opponent...so I can just declare my guy the winner, cause size. " threads.
Chuvalo has gone on record himself saying Williams even after he was shot was one of the hardest punchers he's stepped in the ring with. But I'm sure you know something he doesn't.
Holy ****. I can't believe Big Cat was one of the hardest hitters he ever faced. I mean imagine being "one of the hardest". Such a bold definitive compliment. I'm surprised Chuvalo put it on the line like that with such a specific concrete statement. Who are these other elites to make Chuvalo's "one of the hardest hitting" lists? Maybe twenty guys give or take a few? Super elite.
When Marciano began training in 1957 and rumors circulated he was coming back to fight "heavyweight champion Floyd Patterson" ... Patterson waited a full year as numerous people tried to make that Patterson-Marciano fight happen. When Marciano finally decided not to come back, Patterson fought the #4 contender Roy Harris, instead. Liston didn't even appear in the ratings until 1959. Williams didn't until the 1960s. Your friend's recollections from 60 years ago don't line up with the actual timeline. Marciano was coming back to fight for the title. When he realized he didn't have it anymore, he didn't even try.
