Would Jeffries Chin Survive Liston At His Best?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Fergy, Feb 23, 2021.



  1. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    Don't think there was much in it in terms of weight.
     
  2. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    I think that at the very least you would have to give him mental toughness.
     
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  3. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra H2H Burger King Full Member

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    This would be like a rhino vs a buffalo.

    The buffalo is extremely tough and durable with tons of stamina, but the rhino has a way better weapon with a very long reach. The rhino probably wouldn't win with 1 strike, but the buffalo is going to get worn down no matter how tough and durable it is.

    Similarly, Liston's reach, ramrod jab, and pulverizing power break Jeff down either due to blood loss/swelling or though too many clubbing blows leading to an eventual knockdown. Jeff's only advantage is stamina. They are roughly even in weight and height and Liston has the stylistic advantage. Liston hits harder, has better defense and ring IQ, and isn't a slouch in toughness either. Can't see Jeff making it past 9, let alone 20. It would be an exciting action packed bout for the first couple of rounds, but Jeff's inability to avoid the heavy artillery coming his way would spell his doom. Doesn't matter how good your endurance is if you keep getting hit and aren't doing enough damage back or winning rounds.
     
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  4. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Boxing Drunkie Full Member

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    The weights listed I see, he was under 220 until after losing the title. Do you have a source for those weights?
     
  5. apollack

    apollack Boxing Addict Full Member

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    A lot of folks seem to forget that unless you count the Johnson fight, which was after a 6 year layoff, Jeffries never was down even once in his entire career, including fights that lasted 20 and 25 rounds, fighting with 5-ounce gloves, and he decked every single one of his opponents. He isn't just going to allow Sonny to maul him around. He's going to dish it back too. So not only could he defend, and take it, he could dish it, and keep taking, defending, and dishing it for a long time. He was versatile, could move and box, and also could attack, or clinch and maul on the inside. He used whatever style he needed to use for the particular fight.
     
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  6. louis54

    louis54 Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Finally someone with some boxing sense around here, except for a couple of guys
     
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  7. big_AL

    big_AL P4P #1 Full Member

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    I'm not sure what you mean? Are you asking me about JJ? because you agreed with me about him being below 220? or am I missing something?
     
  8. big_AL

    big_AL P4P #1 Full Member

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    Not sure I agree fully with these takes. Yes a lot of Jeffrie's strengths would be strengths in any era. But I feel mentioning the round arguments isn't as impressive as it may seem.

    yes- fighting 25 rounds is impressive don't get me wrong. But these weren't as active as the number suggests. A quick look at the (admittedly minimal) amount of footage available shows these fights to be very clinch heavy. Fights did not expend as much energy through footwork, much of the fight is usually fought in the trenches. Most fighters held their hands low against opponents with exposed chins. Usually these blows would be deflected due to coming from almost below or at the waist or smothered due to the extreme proximity

    There is also a dearth of footage available of course so there isn't always enough to make adequate fight breakdowns based on the footage we have.

    Luckily, Liston isn't exactly fleet of foot either. But one thing he does have that I feel isn't being mentioned enough is a long, stiff jab that would be unlike most JJ has seen. I'm not going to mention the Johnson fight as that was a long time after JJ was at his peak. But I do feel the natural stylistic changes between the turn of the century and Liston's era do not favour Jeffries here
     
  9. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Boxing Drunkie Full Member

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    I mean the source for Liston being above 220Ibs
     
  10. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    One thing that many people fail to factor in with Jeffries, is how fast he moved up the ladder.

    For example the Jeffries who drew against Joe Choynski, had a lot less ring experience than the Liston who lost to Marty Marshal!

    Jeffries was hot hosed a lot faster, and that is a key reason why he sometimes struggled against smaller, but much more experienced fighters.
     
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  11. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Boxing Drunkie Full Member

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    I think it's worth noting that there are reports suggesting Jeffries had more early fights than are on boxrec, like the claims of him fighting Frank Childs and I've seen references to him having early fights in Arizona and New Mexico, plus he had already been in camp with Corbett for his fight with Fitz at that point.

    Considering Liston's amateur experience, he was probably the more experienced overall, but I'm not sure there was that much of a gulf. I think what's not brought up enough is that the police told him they'd stop the fight if he used his weight on the inside, and it was noted in the reports that he didn't use his weight to his advantage nearly as much as he could have within the rules.
     
  12. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    All of the above is true. Matching Jeffries against Joe Choynski, was probably like throwing the Liston of the Marshal fight, in against Folley or Valdez!
     
  13. DanDaly

    DanDaly Active Member Full Member

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    The most likely way that Jeffries would win is a come from behind knockout imo. Liston is much better of a boxer in general though and matches Jeffries or even exceeds him in physical strength. Neither was particularly quick.

    Liston UD or late tko.
     
  14. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Boxing Drunkie Full Member

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    There's definitely a case for Jeffries being faster. Especially late in career he was praised a lot for his speed, and the footage suggests he could be pretty quick on his feet.

    Hard to really say since there's so little footage and how rudimentary the footage is.
     
  15. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    Taking your points in turn:

    Jeffries best chance is a come from behind KO?

    Sounds reasonable.

    Liston is a better boxer?

    Plausible, but not exactly undeniable. By the end of Jeffries reign, the media were talking about his "new found cleverness." Hoe out boxed Corbett in their last fight!

    Liston matches or perhaps exceeds Jeffries in physical strength?

    I am going to say no. One of the few things that we can reliably document about Jeffries, is his feat's of strength. He was un there with anybody his own weight!

    Neither was particularly quick?

    I would refer you to the footage of Jeffries training for the Ruhlin fight, which is frankly the only decent footage we have, apart from the Johnson fight. He is very quick for a man his size, and looks a lot quicker than Liston. Obviously being quicker than Liston doesn't necessarily get you far!
     
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