Joe Louis vs. Max Baer

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by William Walker, Feb 22, 2021.



  1. swagdelfadeel

    swagdelfadeel Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I know. And this is what likely contributed to the problem. As my source says above, he further injured his hand in training.
     
  2. Jason Thomas

    Jason Thomas Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Thanks for the info. The article from the Atlanta paper in 1948 goes far beyond just the Baer knuckle problem and I recommend reading the whole article which is about athletes using drugs. This is what he says about Baer:

    "The knuckle, swollen to the size of a goose egg, had been broken in a previous fight and further bruised in training. Subsequent events indicated that what Max needed more than Novocain was something strong to steady the flutter of his heart."

    He then mentions Jock Malone having an injured hand going into a fight with Mickey Walker and getting a shot of Novocain, and

    "How well it worked was shown when Malone, whose right mitt was almost chronically crippled, gave the tough and rowdy Mickey a boxing lesson to win the decision."

    Far the most interesting is this bit about corners having a bottle of "water, plus spirits of ammonia, plus Digitalis" available if needed,

    "The combination warms the fighter's innards with a sudden energy from a heart stimulated to quicker beats."

    "Billy Duffy . . . told me he used the mixture on Jack Dempsey early in his fight with Jack Sharkey."

    This writer quotes Duffy as describing Dempsey as hurt and woozy after taking a Sharkey punch in the third but after swallowing a gulp of this concoction, "Dempsey took the rest of Sharkey's punches without wincing."

    Interesting insight into Dempsey using drugs in the Sharkey fight. Digitalis is a serious medication which has notable impact on the heart rate and increasing blood circulation.

    My own comment on Baer--there is exaggeration about the swelling. I saw goose eggs back in my youth on the farm and Baer couldn't have gotten his glove over that. I accept that there must have been pain and swelling. On the other hand, the injury couldn't have been that severe or why would Baer go through with the fight if he couldn't use his hand? This writer has it broken in a previous fight, not saying which one, and now "bruised." This seems more likely.

    The film doesn't corroborate anything. Only your interpretation of it does. Baer uses his right in the first round when he thinks he has Louis hurt, but Louis completely turns it around and gives Baer a bad going over. From there on Baer fights in a shell for the most part. Was this shell because he injured his hand? Or because he was intimidated and learned that exchanging with Louis was a losing proposition.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2021
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  3. he grant

    he grant Historian/Film Maker Full Member

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    A magic night .. Louis showed more movement than ever ... springing around a bit on his legs like he did as an amateur showing could move when he wanted to and not just paid someone down .. a beautiful fight , the highlight of his rise ... Dempsey , working Baer's corner said afterward he never saw a better fighter than Louis that night, ever ... after that fight Baer was done ... pretty amazing to see how cool Schmeling was for this first fight after this one ...
     
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  4. KasimirKid

    KasimirKid Well-Known Member Full Member

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    I am sorry to take so long in answering. I therefore owe you as complete an answer as possible.

    Your research together with the contributions from others on this thread have caused me to re-think Max's take on fighting. In my younger days, I always figured he just flat out quit against Louis, but now I have a more nuanced view.

    I pretty much believe everything you have dug up about Max's injured hand to be true. I guess his hand trouble has been traced back to an exhibition he had in Cleveland against Eddie Simms during a tour he had prior to the Braddock fight. I think he had confidence enough in his abilities and thought little enough of those of Braddock that he thought he defeat Braddock anyway. He probably underestimated the length of time that it would take the hand to heal and by the time he realized it, he felt it was too late, believing he had an obligation to the promoters and the fans to go through with the fight. And who knows he may have been short of cash and was willing to risk it. He was a jovial guy and his whole personality seems to be about pleasing other people as well as himself.

    As far as the Louis fight goes, Max was in the business to make money. Given that he was the most recent ex-champion and the fan fervor about Louis was just peaking and that Louis was single-handedly bringing the sport out of the doldrums of the Great Depression, the timing was right for Max to fight Joe. If Max asked for a postponement (especially in view of the doctor’s opinion that surgery would be needed to fix the hand), the perfect moment would be gone. Mike Jacobs would find a substitute to fight Joe and by the time Max’s hand healed (if it ever would) circumstances would likely be very different. As it stood, ticket sales were brisk and the newspapers were predicting the possibility of a million-dollar gate weeks before the bout was scheduled to take place. Since Max was guaranteed 20%, he stood to lose $200,000 by bailing out. As champion when he defended the title against Braddock, he only made $88,000. So, he knew that the Louis fight was going to be the biggest score of his career by far.

    So, what to do about fighting Louis fight with a bum hand? He talked to the doctors and decided to go ahead with deadening the pain in his right hand with novocaine so he could proceed with the fight. The injection might have worked, but the rain delayed the fight for 45 minutes and the novocaine started to wear off. So, he shot the works in the first round, but after a few punches in a ferocious exchange his hand gives way, and he has to back off and let Louis take charge.

    Now, there comes another what-to-do question when he goes back to his corner after the first round. He knows at this point he has absolutely no chance of winning. He can quit now and run home with the purse money, but then who knows what might happen. The business about the broken hand before the fight would undoubtedly come out and the boxing commission would probably investigate his decision to go ahead with the fight. The commission might even decide to suspend his license and/or take away his purse for going ahead with the fight under false pretenses. At the very least, quitting while sitting in his corner after only one round would cause his reputation to take a major hit.

    So he decides to go out for the second round and face the music. He just stands there and eats punches for two rounds until he’s floored near the end of the third round. At this point, he thinks he’s taken enough punishment to satisfy the crowd’s bloodlust. But the bell rings and he has to go out for the fourth round and take some more punishment before he gets dropped again. At this point, he’s not getting up and in a fit of misplaced bravado, he waves to the crowd while he is being counted out.

    In the dressing room, except for his decision not to discuss his hand, he’s really candid about why he didn’t try to beat the count. I think we can take him at his words:

    “Sure I quit, he hit me eighteen times while I was in the act of falling that last time. I could have struggled up once more, but I don’t intend to be cutting up paper dolls for a living. Besides, I got a wife and family to think about. If anyone wants to see the execution of Max Baer, he’s gotta pay a lot more than $25 for a ringside seat.”

    So, he had made a compromise with himself by coming out after the first round. He would take a beating to fulfill his perceived obligation to the fans, but he would only go so far. He wouldn’t allow himself to be beaten into insensibility. And he wouldn’t pretend he was hurt more than he actually was.

    That is how I see the fight from Max’s perspective.
     
  5. swagdelfadeel

    swagdelfadeel Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Excellent post!! I agree wholeheartedly. I think a healthy Max (who wasn't clowning around) would've given Louis a much better fight (though he's never going to win that one).

    I agree with you in that Baer seems to have shot his wad with his right hand in the first 2 rounds (particularly the first). He seldom (if at all) uses it in rounds 3 and 4.
     
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  6. William Walker

    William Walker Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Good post Kasimir, interesting approach.
     
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  7. Jason Thomas

    Jason Thomas Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I am interesting in what the facts are. Here are some given in The Magnificent Max Baer by Colleen Ayc-ck

    The fight is set on August 22, 1935 for September 24 at Yankee Stadium.

    "Before Baer could face Louis, the New York Commission required his hands to be reexamined. Commission doctors, headed by Frederick E. Elliott, took a dozen X-rays and declared: "There was no apparent sign of anything not normal in the fighter's hands."

    There follows a long section on Baer training very hard, with extensive roadwork, chopping trees, soaking his hands in brine, etc. Baer was taking this fight seriously, sparring six rounds per day:

    "He severely battered all three of his sparring partners, Tony Canala, Lou Scozza, and Cecil Harris."

    At the weigh-in on the day of the fight, "Dr. Walker performed the routine medical exam and both Baer and Louis were declared in fine shape."

    Baer is allowed in this fight to wear his specially made 6 oz gloves.

    Up to this point, it appears Baer is in totally good shape and with his hands okay for the fight, but suddenly, as Louis is taking a pre-fight nap just before the bout,

    "While Louis was snoozing, a doctor was in Baer's dressing room frantically trying to decide what to do with Baer's injured hand."

    We are only now told that Baer's hand was "broken" in training, but no details are given.

    "The main event didn't start until 10 p. m. Baer's hands were securely bandaged when the novocaine was starting to wear off. Max panicked."

    According to this version, the Buddy Baer-Ford Smith 6 round bout was scheduled for the wind-up after the main event, but was now moved up, apparently as a result of Max's panic attack and threat not to go forward with the bout.

    "According to Bayard Bookman, accountant for Hoffman and Baer: "As the hour neared, Max and the doctor slipped into the men's room. There the doctor inserted the needle for another novocaine shot under the bandages." "Instead of numbing the hand, it deadened the whole forearm."

    "Max was determined not to go forward with the bout. Hoffman couldn't budge him. Dempsey almost literally had to drag him out for the fight."

    It goes on to relate that Baer tells Dempsey after the third that he can't use his right but doesn't want to quit on his stool.

    My reactions:

    aside--interesting that the guy who keeps the books for Baer and Hoffman is named Bookman.

    It appears Baer's hand was okay until injured just before the fight. He is described as training hard and hitting his sparring partners hard.

    The delay of the main event was not due to rain, but to Baer balking at going on and getting a second novocaine shot. It is implied that this shot wasn't effective in numbing the hand, but who knows.

    My take is Baer after 1934 was not that effective against top level competition, losing to Braddock, Louis, Farr, and Nova twice, with his only top wins over Farr (by decision) and Galento (who quit on his stool claiming a broken hand). Comiskey was never that good and was only 19. So I don't think there is anything to explain about Louis beating Baer so decisively. Baer beating Louis would have been a really big upset for me, as Louis was at the top of his game and not flat like he would be against Schmeling.

    The bottom line is having hands able to take punching a man is part of the game. If Baer's hands were brittle, that is as much a weakness as easy to open scar tissue over the eyes. I don't think bad hands beat him, but if they did, so be it.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2021