Juan Francisco Estrada Romero vs. Román Alberto González Luna II/Hiroto Kyōguchi vs. Axel Aragón RBR

IntentionalButt · Mar 14, 2021

roughdiamond said: ↑

Chocola-tit-o
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Not sure it'd do Juan many favors, changing from El Gallo (The Rooster) to ...erm, yeah, even the 'hen' doesn't improve things much.

shadow111 · Mar 14, 2021

CST80 said: ↑

Quantity trumps quality if the quantity is far greater than the opponent's.
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Quality trumps quantity if the quality is far greater than the opponent's. To your point, "we should not be overwhelmed or short circuited by seeing a man move his hands really fast". Rounds should not be scored based on who looks "busier" or who moves their arms more. Punch stats should never be relied on to argue who won rounds. Quantity only should make the difference when both fighters are scoring blows of similar quality. In many cases, it's too difficult for fans to notice the difference in quality, and they end up completely ignoring quality altogether and just end up counting punches. You know better, you know that you need to have an keen eye for the quality of each blow. There's no threshold for how many less punches you can land than your opponent and still win a round. If one fighter lands several more significantly higher quality shots than his opponent, he could win the round. On the contrary, if his opponent outworks him, he could win the round. But if he's taken some heavy punches in the process of outworkng him, then it becomes harder to score.

JOKER · Mar 14, 2021

Drew101 said: ↑

Yet, Chcocatito clearly drove Estrada back with his punches on more than one occasion. Punches can be effective in different ways.
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Yes. Just saying JFE's punches were much much louder.

Boomstick · Mar 14, 2021

Drew101 said: ↑

Yet, Chcocatito clearly drove Estrada back with his punches on more than one occasion. Punches can be effective in different ways.
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True that. Chocolate Tito’s punches clearly bothered JFE. Even if it was due to an accumulation, they were effective.

Ted Spoon · Mar 14, 2021

Many of Chocolatito's punches are half-power shots to keep you under pressure, spy the cracks, and conserve energy.

He doesn't throw that many hard rights. When he does you can tell because it's at full extension.

On average, Estrada puts more on his shots.

IntentionalButt · Mar 14, 2021

Ted Spoon said: ↑

Many of Chocolatito's punches are half-power shots to keep you under pressure, spy the cracks, and conserve energy.

He doesn't throw that many hard rights. When he does you can tell because it's at full extension.

On average, Estrada puts more on his shots.
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That introduces a conundrum though - as often accuracy is sacrified for increased power - do you weigh more heavily a shot that is thrown with more forcefulness and malicious/damaging intent but that skids off target or is partially caught on the glove/shoulder/bicep, or an opponent's shot that is maybe pulled somewhat but lands cleaner?

Boomstick · Mar 14, 2021

IntentionalButt said: ↑

At the risk of starting a serious political firestorm with a tongue-in-cheek aside, because of course this is ESB..

They could both have reassignment surgery and have two-minute rounds in the rubber match.
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Ooooh. You went there.

Ted Spoon · Mar 14, 2021

IntentionalButt said: ↑

That introduces a conundrum though - as often accuracy is sacrified for increased power - do you weigh more heavily a shot that is thrown with more forcefulness and malicious/damaging intent but that skids off target or is partially caught on the glove/shoulder/bicep, or an opponent's shot that is maybe pulled somewhat but lands cleaner?
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It's what you like, as they say. Shame there isn't a better answer.

I think one thing to look out for during re-watches, to help better decide rounds, is Roman's defence.

Those forearms blocks were on-point.

OvidsExile · Mar 14, 2021

Hmm, over at boxrec. 45 fight fans have scored the fight an average 117-112 for Gonzalez.
https://boxrec.com/en/scoring/2603419
And over at EyeOnTheRing 88% of the 18 fans voting disagreed with the decision going to Estrada.
https://www.eyeonthering.com/boxing/juan-francisco-estrada-vs-roman-gonzalez-ii

CST80 · Mar 14, 2021

JOKER said: ↑

Anyone notice how much harder Estrada seemed to be hitting? The sounds were heavy. Chocolate Tito, not so much.
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Ah! You noticed that too? Yeah, so did I, which is precisely why I edged many of the razor close rounds Gallo's way. Same applies for the first RG vs. SSR match. When the connects are close to even, then you have to take the quality into consideration. And the quality punches throughout the fight WERE CLEARLY coming from Estrada.

CST80 · Mar 14, 2021

IntentionalButt said: ↑

Right. The thing with weeding out robberies from unpopular decisions in close fights is, you first need to pare down to essential rounds. As in, cases where you have to give round X to fighter A or B. Generally speaking, these are the rounds where, an outlier here and there aside, absolutely everyone - going RBR on forums, live-tweeting on Twitter, publicly offered up on press row, and in YT comments sections years later - score it unanimously. You set aside those aside, call it Tier 1 at the base of your pyramid - that's your foundational 'we all can agree on this much' starting point. Then, it gets tricky - you have to sift out the "close but clear" from the "Jesus, who the hell did win that one?? " frames. The former is your middle layer and the latter your apex of the pyramid (assuming standard distribution, although sometimes there will in fact be more razor-thin impossible-to-split ones than competitive but with a clear victor).

Round 1 is a Tier 1 round for Estrada. Hardly anybody gave it to Chocolatito.

Round 2 is second tier for González - there was a notable amount of dissent, and you saw a trickle of 10-9's for Estrada, but most had it for the Nicaraguan.

Round 3 is where we find our first real head-scratcher up at the pyramid's tippy-top - and that's where you see major divergences begin.

All it takes a few rounds like the third (and fourth, which I had for Estrada by a filament) and you can have two people adamantly swearing that a fight went two completely different ways - because in their minds, those second- and third-tier rounds are indistinguishable; they all just get lumped together as 'close but clear' for the guy they saw it for. When it really is more nuanced than all that. Quite often a good, experienced scorer will have a fight like this differently on future viewings. Different, to an extent, that is within reason. They won't budge on any but the uppermost layer of the pyramid, and that includes rounds they may in real time not have realized they were so infirm on their convictions about the first time around.

I fully acknowledge that watching this again in 5 years I might have it 115-114, 115-113 (assuming I eschew doing another 10-10 and find a justified rationale to pick somebody's way to lean), or even possibly 116-112 for Estrada - but 117-111 just feels like it sits beyond the scope of what nudging some Tier-3's might accomplish. On the bubble, on my card, of the rounds I scored for González, the closest are the 5th, 8th, and 11th. Swing them all Estrada's way, along with my 10-10 in round 3, and I'd reach that 117-111 score for him (1, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 11 for him and 2, 10, 12 for González) - but the question then becomes, how close did I mean by 'close' in the moment? How married am I to González as the winner of that round? Was it a case of 51%-49%, or more like 60%-40%. I certainly don't feel like all four of those rounds on the chopping block were taken by Chocolatito, in my view, by a narrow enough margin that you could reverse them. None of the four are more suspeptible to reversal than my round 4 for Estrada. (if you 'trade' round 4 for rounds 3, 5, 8, and 11 you get a 116-112 win for Estrada on my card, but that is an unequitable 4-1 trade in the closest rounds where the 4 on one side are less close than the one opposite in the bargain).

So even with a disciplined approach like this you still run into the problem of subjectivity in scoring, and people who may normally exhibit the same taste in fighters and have equally experienced eyes and be applying the same criteria, can find themselves in wildly different locales and each unable to understand how the other got so far off-track, just on the basis of that narrowing of perspective the further up the pyramid you go, and people having a hard time separating rounds they allocated one fighter's way in the heat of the moment (possibly for a very valid reason) but that might be subject to change later from the ones that are in fact in that challenging-to-pinpoint 'close but (unshakably) clear' territory.

tl;dr - Bottom line, if there's more than a couple of Tier 3's, and when you subtract those from your equation you find the rest of the rounds are fairly evenly distributed between the fighters ...then you can't really use the word robbery.
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I'm not married to my 117-111 score, as I pointed out at the bottom of my scorecard.

CST80 said: ↑

Round 1 Estrada 10-9
Round 2 Estrada 10-9
Round 3 Estrada 10-9
Round 4 Estrada 10-9
Round 5 Gonzalez 10-9
Round 6 Estrada 10-9
Round 7 Estrada 10-9
Round 8 Estrada 10-9
Round 9 Estrada 10-9
Round 10 Gonzalez 10-9
Round 11 Estrada 10-9
Round 12 Gonzalez 10-9

117-111 Estrada

116-112 and 115-113 are fine as well.
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However I went back and watched the disputed rounds.

The 2nd round, I don't think an argument can be made for Roman, Gallo started out well, dominated the first half of the round. The Roman came on, but even as he was picking up his volume, their accuracy remained roughly the same, with Gallo slipping or rolling with many of his shots, and landing the crisper counters. Then Gallo also finished well. Is it worthy of a close asterisk, sure... but it wasn't that close.

The 3rd, Roman gave the illusion that he was having more success than he actually was, also when you take into consideration the crowd got awfully excited when Roman unleashed his sustained volley of punches for the better part of the first minute, barely any of them actually landed clean. Gallo was slapping them down and blocking most of them. Then he came back and landed the far cleaner shots in the last two minutes. Do I have an issue with someone giving that round to Roman? Not really, but I stand by my score. I didn't see it as quite 10-10 worthy. Granted, I don't think I've ever given a 10-10 on here.

I honestly don't think an argument could be made for Roman in the 8th. Nor do I think the eighth was all that hard to judge Gallo was marching forward throughout, sometimes landing in combination, Roman was counter punching well, but there wasn't enough on his shots. I think it was just a case of him doing better that round than he'd done in the 7th, which he lost pretty badly.

The one on my card that I might be willing to flip is the 11th. That was almost impossible to split. So if I did that, I could get down to a 116-112, then add in the 3rd, a 115-113 is plausible. But I think it's a stretch to hand Roman the 2nd or the 8th. At the very least go back and watch those two rounds in particular. I'm willing to cede ground on the 11th, maybe the 3rd. But that's it.

CST80 · Mar 14, 2021

@dellboi94 Summed it up quite well. Fair and balanced, except for his 117-111 Estrada crack.

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OvidsExile · Mar 14, 2021

Scores taken from the round by round thread:

Gonzalez 12 votes

IntentionalButt said: ↑

Round 12

González is walking through Estrada's remaining antipersonnel measures, brushing aside in-and-up airplane-takeoff jabs and erratically sprayed rights, taking charge with four-hook sequences, of which some go unanswered as Estrada falls back into a partway seated stance, and uses his last vestiges of stamina to move his head just enough to not get decapitated as González storms on, slow of hand and foot now but putting his all into every forceful shot.

10-9 González

115-114
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Drew101 said: ↑

HELL YEAH! I LOVE THIS SPORT!

115-113 Choco. Wouldn't argue with that same score for Estrada.
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drenlou said: ↑

toe to toe every round... when do you see that!! Foty so far... 115-113 Chocolitito
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cornwall22 said: ↑

116-112 Chocolatito. BRILLIANT fight. FOTY has to be pencilled in, WOW.
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HamburgBuam said: ↑

Estrada - Gonzalez

1: 10:9
2: 9:10
3: 9:10
4: 9:10
5: 9:10
6: 10:9
7: 10:9
8: 9:10
9: 9:10
10: 9:10
11: 10:9
12: 9:10

112-116 Gonzalez
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cuchulain said: ↑

7 - 5 Chocolatito.

115 - 113 Chocolatito.

A draw would be acceptable.
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junkhead said: ↑

7-5 Gonzalez, I feel Gonzalez won that but on a rbr basis I can see a draw
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sasto said: ↑

1. Gallo 10-9
2. Roman 10-9
3. Gallo 10-9
4. Roman 10-9
5. Roman 10-9
6. Roman 10-9
7. Gallo 10-9
8. Roman 10-9
9. Gallo 10-9
10. Roman 10-9
11. Gallo 10-9
12. Roman 10-9

115-113 Chocolatito
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nidaros997 said: ↑

Choco won the final round too, and the fight for me. Fight of the year so far.
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JabbaTheGut said: ↑

8-4 Gonzalez, foty contender for sure.
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The Akbar One said: ↑

Gonzalez took it. Estrada fought the wrong fight
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Chuck Norris said: ↑

Round 12
10-10
Gonzalez 115-114

FOTY
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shza said: ↑

115-113 Gonzalez... He put on an inside defense clinic.
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Estrada 1 vote

CST80 said: ↑

Round 1 Estrada 10-9
Round 2 Estrada 10-9
Round 3 Estrada 10-9
Round 4 Estrada 10-9
Round 5 Gonzalez 10-9
Round 6 Estrada 10-9
Round 7 Estrada 10-9
Round 8 Estrada 10-9
Round 9 Estrada 10-9
Round 10 Gonzalez 10-9
Round 11 Estrada 10-9
Round 12 Gonzalez 10-9

117-111 Estrada

116-112 and 115-113 are fine as well.
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Draw 4 votes

McGrain said: ↑

6-6.
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The Professor said: ↑

Round 1: Estrada, 10-9
Round 2: Gonzalez, 10-9
Round 3: Estrada, 10-9
Round 4: Gonzalez. 10-9
Round 5: Estrada, 10-9
Round 6: Gonzalez, 10-9
Round 7: Estrada, 10-9
Round 8: Estrada, 10-9
Round 9: Gonzalez, 10-9
Round 10: Gonzalez, 10-9
Round 11: Estrada, 10-9
Round 12: Gonzalez, 10-9

114-114, Draw
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George Crowcroft said: ↑

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10 : 9
10 : 9
9 : 10*
10 : 9*
9 : 10
10 : 9
9 : 10*
10 : 9*
9 : 10*
9 : 10*
10 : 9
9 : 10* (
This content is protected
)
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PinoyProdigy said: ↑

Round 1: 10-9 Estrada
Round 2: 10-9 Gonzalez
Round 3: 10-9 Estrada
Round 4: 10-9 Estrada
Round 5: 10-9 Gonzalez
Round 6: 10-9 Estrada
Round 7: 10-9 Estrada
Round 8: 10-9 Gonzalez
Round 9: 10-9 Estrada
Round 10: 10-9 Gonzalez
Round 11: 10-9 Estrada
Round 12: 10-9 Gonzalez

115-113 Estrada
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George Crowcroft · Mar 15, 2021

CST80 said: ↑

The 2nd round, I don't think an argument can be made for Roman, Gallo started out well, dominated the first half of the round. The Roman came on, but even as he was picking up his volume, their accuracy remained roughly the same, with Gallo slipping or rolling with many of his shots, and landing the crisper counters. Then Gallo also finished well. Is it worthy of a close asterisk, sure... but it wasn't that close.
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I'm in complete agreement of this. In comparison to the first, Gonzalez did brilliantly. In a vacuum, he didn't do enough. He landed like four heavy punches, but didn't really land much else memorable.

Bustajay · Mar 15, 2021

Finally sat down and watched this thing and was not dissatisfied at all and this is FOTY.
115/113 for either guy or a draw. I am completely torn on this one son!!!

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Juan Francisco Estrada Romero vs. Román Alberto González Luna II/Hiroto Kyōguchi vs. Axel Aragón RBR

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Juan Francisco Estrada Romero vs. Román Alberto González Luna II/Hiroto Kyōguchi vs. Axel Aragón RBR

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