Does anybody know how good was Marcel Cerdan

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by ron davis, Mar 30, 2021.



  1. Eddie Ezzard

    Eddie Ezzard Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Herbert Goldman listed his 100 greatest middleweights back in 89 in Boxing Illustrated. Robinson was a welter. Cerdan came in 3rd - after Greb and Monzon, I believe.
     
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  2. fists of fury

    fists of fury Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    That's a pity.
     
  3. ron davis

    ron davis Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Getting in the ring with Cerdan is at your own risk! Jake Lamotta even said, Marcel Cerdan was great, on same plateau with Sugar Ray Robinson.
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2021
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  4. Arminius1

    Arminius1 Member Full Member

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    I read in one book that I read that he was thought of the man who could have defeated Ray Robinson.
     
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  5. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    Saverio Turiello was a contender on a good run when Cerdan beat him twice.
    His record was a modest 72-31-34 (according boxrec) going into the first match, but on close inspection over the previous 18 or 24 months his record was relatively clean, with some good wins, two apiece over Cocoa Kid and Milt Aron in America, for example.

    Rated #4 at end of 1937 by RING, rated #6 at end of 1938 by RING.
    Marcel Cerdan beat him February 1939, and June 1939, before the war situation is Europe threw Cerdan's career in strange directions.
     
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  6. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    It's not very difficult to research Cerdan's career in depth in you read French quite well.
    There's tons of newspaper and magazine coverage in French language.

    But if you don't read French, it is very difficult. Believe me.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2021
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  7. thistle

    thistle Boxing Addict Full Member

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    it's not that difficult really, here for example is a link from 1940 - 1949 of 829 British News Paper Reports on Cerdan

    https://www.britishnewspaperarchive...rch=marcel cerdan&retrievecountrycounts=false

    and there is an additional 112 Reports from 1938 & 1939... and that's just the UK ones, then there's the Ring Magazine, then Boxing News and then the USA Newspaper Reports and of course Boxing Books.

    now I know not everyone is a Collector or Researcher, but between Old Nat Fleischer's early assessment, his fight record and the Statements and claims made about him, it is pretty straight forward and of course these can all be validated against these Reports.

    then there is some excellent Proper Film footage on the man... there is No Dispute about Cerdan, None.
     
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  8. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    True, but the articles in French language publications were far lengthier.

    I agree with your point though. There is no reasonable doubt about Marcel Cerdan. He's a certified great, case closed.
     
  9. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    No, Turiello was actually ranked WHEN Cerdan beat him - he was ranked in February 1939. But that's not the point I was making. We know about Turiello. What i'm saying is the huge list of names he took, none of those guys emerged to validate him in the way some of the Mexicans from around the same time were validated by their opposition, for example. They were exactly what they looked like.

    My mind is open, but based upon my knowledge of Cerdan he is absolutely not great. There is no case for rating him as such. Case not closed, but my position for sure.
     
  10. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    I'm not sure how that is supposed to make sense. You say : "the guys he fought this side of the Atlantic, none of them emerge as guys of consequence in any weight class."
    But Turiello was a guy of consequence in the very weight class Cerdan beat him in, at the time he beat him, on this side of the Atlantic.

    He was a great fighter. Regarded as such by virtually everyone, with good reason.
     
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  11. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Emerge. Emerge is the key word. Turiello was already a guy of consequence. My point was that there are no surprise names among the men he defeated so when people peruse his boxrec record and go "wow, that's a lot of wins, i bet he beat some really good fighters in there." He did, probably, but nobody who would fight him early in their career went on to hugely enhance their standing thereby enhancing the value of the win. Nobody emerged.

    If it's confusing, it wasn't meant to be, there's no curtain to it.

    Herb Goldman had him at five. A generally well researched list on BS had him at 13, off the top of my head. But I don't care about any of that.

    The notion of Cerdan as a "great fighter" like Ali or Holyfield was a great fighter at Welterweight is preposterous, and i'm sure you're not arguing for it. He wouldn't make a top 200 I don't think, and unless, like thistle, you argue for that many greats for every weight class, you agree that he wasn't a great welterweight.

    At MW, he boxed at for about five years. In that time he beat five different contenders, I think.

    He beat Holman Williams. Holman would win something like 5 of 15 remaining fights and carried two injuries into the fight. He had fought around 170 contests at this point in his career. His hands were ****ed going in and even more ****ed after three rounds. He didn't use his right hand after the third. Still the decision was s booed by sections of the crowd and still some ringsiders scored it a draw or for Williams.

    Next meaningful fight was Georgie Abrams. Abrams had tip-toed past Steve Beloise in the fight before, but to use your own language it was five years since he had won a "clear controversy-free fight over a ranked contender." Five years, man. That's a lot. He would go 1-4 in his remaining career after Cerdan. He was done.

    Cerdan then went back to Europe and got tucked up by the Eurepean level Cyrille Delannoit over fifteen, Delannoit having just been done by Luc Van Dam. Cerdan got an immediate rematch and evened things up at 1-1. I have been unable to confirm whether or not this got Cyrille into the Ring rankings for a month :lol: I would very much like to know, not that it really matters.

    Cerdan was undoubtedly superb in beating up Tony Zale, but Zale, of course, would never fight again. That made him the champ, but successful title defences were 0. Then he died.

    I can't make this up to great. I don't see how it separates him from someone like Randy Turpin who in addition to minor ranked guys like George Angelo and Charles Humez has Ray Robinson on his ledger...not for me, but that's the type of company he keeps. Abrams himself is right there with Cerdan, Nunn, Roy Jones, Billy Conn...that's the sort of level he's at as a middleweight.

    Now if you think those guys are great middleweights like thistle does, I say fair enough. But I certainly don't and Cerdan did absolutely nothing to elevate him above that kind of company in my eye.
     
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  12. Fergy

    Fergy Walking Dead Full Member

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    Was an excellent fighter, only lost his title due to that shoulder injury. One of the greatest at the weight. Dreadful shame he died so young.
     
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  13. Fergy

    Fergy Walking Dead Full Member

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    I think so Stevie.
     
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  14. Seamus

    Seamus Proud Kulak Full Member

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    Overrated. Massively by some. His record is composed largely of cream puffs as noted by some above. And it's not a Les Darcy situation where he had his prime in front of him. An intriguing guy but not what I consider a great.
     
  15. ron davis

    ron davis Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Appreciate all the info on Cerdan, great job. Thanks.