Who Punched Harder: Deontay Wilder or Rocky Marciano?

he was using SEVERAL logic fallacies, which are far more egregious than insulting someone, and he was using those fallacies on purpose. Hence the insults. No one with any sort of basic education would claim that an insult is worse than intentionally going off subject, misquoting, having horrendous reading comprehension, and pretending to not understand what someone said in an attempt to annoy them.

You clearly don't know what you're talking about and I'm not going to be lectured by you when I've already gotten lectured by a professor who gave me an A on this subject. Let me know when you've passed a debate class or taught one before you attempt to give me advice bucko.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_the_goalposts

And I have explained to you repeatedly that beating an old / shot fighter is not the same as a prime version. Punch resistance diminishes. Or do you deny that?

Fury looked like utter dogshyte in the 2 fights he had before Wilder. There's a reason everybody picked Wilder to beat him at the time. The reason for him looking so bad was the extreme weight loss. Evidently you are unaware what rapid weight loss can do to you. So, I shall inform you

"When you lose weight, it’s not just fat that you lose but muscle as well. A loss in muscle mass often comes with decreasing metabolism rate, which further destabilises the fat-to-muscle ratio. Weaker muscles translate to more inconvenience in day-to-day activities like carrying heavy groceries or climbing the stairs."

https://www.activehealth.sg/read/nu...extreme-weight-loss-you-cant-afford-to-ignore

For one, it's clear that the version of Arreola Wilder beat was much worse than the one Vitali beat, and making an equivalence of their relative punching power on that basis is a flawed argument.

Beating shot Arreola is truly amazing. Should we make the statue to Wilder out of concrete, or steel.? Wait, maybe a monument made from crushed tomato soup cans would be more apropos.

It makes a difference because Wilder injured himself thanks to his spastic punching. It makes a difference because you made it sound like he went into the fight injured and won anyway, which is not the case. Fury going into the first Wilder fight as weak as a kitten and still boxing his ears off is a true example of a diminished fighter beating a healthy fighter.

The word 'more' before clever completely changes the context of 'clever'. Since you claim awesome reading comprehension, I have to assume that your misunderstanding of this was not a misunderstanding due to stupidity, but deliberate maliciousness. This particular fallacy is known as setting up a strawman.

Sure, and now you know what it feels like. Sauce, goose and gander, right?

Wilder literally fought 2 decent guys and managed to beat only 1 of them Marciano has a series of ATGs on his resume.

The drug he tested positive for at the time of the Wilder fight was meldonium, which is essentially a pep pill. Furthermore, it was WITHIN the acceptable limits as set down by the testing agencies. Yet Wilder still ran so fast they're still finding his luggage at the airport. Of course, a fighter that did actual PEDS like Ortiz was fine for Wilder to face, mainly because he was 300 years old or thereabouts

^ Opinion.

I've done that same thing myself. In fact I have bust my hands twice when taking care of business and that never stopped me from finishing the fight. Now, I may be superhuman but I seriously doubt that. It just doesn't feel like such an amazing accomplishment to me.

Not at all. You claim likes are a validation of your arguments. When I put forward the fact that I could double your likes on these posts by bringing them to the attention of people that would agree with me, you backtrack on the weight that likes have. Confused, much?

 

That's now what goal post shifting is.

You said winning a fight with a broken hand is no big deal and regular people can do it. So I asked if it happens often in boxing which is completely valid question since you keep acting like what Wilder did is no big deal.

I disagree that Areola was shot and that his punch resistance had significantly diminished since the Vitali fight.

After losing to Wilder he knocked out the undefeated Augustine and went the distance with a prime Kownacki setting a record by throwing an astonishing 1,125 punches. Shot and worn out fighters do not usually defeat undefeated prime prospects nor do they throw more than a thousand punches or go the distance with prime fighters. Shot fighters usually are gunshy and either get stopped quickly or go into their shell fighting a defensive fight to avoid getting KO'd. He did not hesitate to open up after facing Wilder and took multiple bombs in other fights.

Yeah your memory is horrible. Before the first fight with Wilder he easily stopped the first opponent and then looked completely comfortable winning nearly every round in the 2nd fight effortlessly going the distance without gassing out or getting marked up.

Perhaps you are thinking of the Otto Wallin fight which was before the SECOND match with Wilder?

Before the FIRST match with Wilder he weighed 258. Against Wilder in the FIRST fight he weighed 256. He lost TWO lbs in FOUR months and you are telling me he looked bad due to "extreme weight loss?"

Excuse me while I laugh.

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It would be if not for the fact Wilder knocked him out with a broken hand.

-A healthy Vitali landing blow after blow could not drop Areola for 10 rounds.

-Vitali could not drop the C level Chisora for 12 rounds.

-He could not drop a wheezing old shot zero defense Shannon Briggs despite landing flush bombs on him for 12 rounds

-He could not drop a flat footed obese wide open target Samuel Peter for 8 rounds.

-He could not drop a chubby 38 year old Sanders.

-He could not drop Puritty despite nailing him for 11 rounds.

-He could no drop the 5'11 Bean who was 30 lbs lighter than him.

-He could not drop Byrd who moved up from light heavyweight and was giving up 30 lbs.

-He could not drop a gassing obese old Lennox Lewis who fought like a drunk bouncer

I could go on. I do not see ANY of these men remaining conscious if Wilder landed bomb after bomb on them for 8, 9, 10+ rounds.

It's very telling that Areola ate Vitali's punches for breakfast yet was down and very timid against Wilder with a broken hand.

He wasn't shot and his chin was still good as proven by other fights after Wilder.

If he had deteriorated that much everyone would be bouncing him off the canvas. You don't know what shot means.

No, I wasn't making it sound like anything. This is your idiotic interpretation and more of you putting a narrative on me that doesn't exist.

I never remotely suggested Wilder injured himself before the fight. Not once, and if you are claiming I did you are either a liar or you cannot read.

It doesn't make a difference if he injured himself or not. To throw with bad intentions with all your weight into a shot with a broken hand is a shocking feat no matter how you slice it.

Fury was not as weak as a kitten. He lost two fights that did not take anything out of him. You exaggerate for one fighter and completely disregard the other. But you're not biased right?

Yeah, I'm aware you said "more" and either way the word clever doesn't apply to Rocky at all even if the context is you comparing him to Wilder. They're both sloppy. Again, turtle beating snail in a race analogy. I did not set up a straw man because I literally acknowledged the context with which you used the word clever. You are about as dense as a quarter.

I edited your posts?

Meldonium is more than just a big deal:

"Meldonium increases an athlete's endurance and exercise tolerance and it also reduces recovery time, which is really important in high-level athletes," Dr. Robert Glatter, a physician at Lenox Hill Hospital in New York, explained to CBS. "It basically increases and improves blood flow.

You are blaming Wilder for not fighting an opponent that the sanctioning bodies banned.

So you're forgetting Povetkin was supposed to fight Stiverne in an eliminator for the Wilder's WBC belt and Povetkin tested positive which is why he failed not once, but twice to get his shot?

You really do love making excuses for fighters you like huh?

An opinion shared by multiple people.

Yeah YOU might have been able to finish a fight with a broken hand. IS THAT COMMON YOU IGNORAMUS?

I'm saying you claiming you are winning the debate is confusing since several people disagree apparently. So if we aren't using the court of public oppinion on what basis are you justified in claiming you've been owning me? Give me some examples. I noticed you dodged the question.

 

Yes, it does happen in boxing matches.

He'd significantly declined and you can see it simply by looking at the two versions. He got knocked out by Stiverne who isn't exactly setting the world on fire with his accomplishments.

That's a fair argument against Arreola being shot and I'll accept it. His decline is still apparent, though, and how could it not be, given that he's much older. The fact that OLD Arreola is competing with the luminaries of the current division is an indictment of the current division rather than a reflection of how good Arreola is. You know that Kownacki was knocked out by ancient Helenius, right? What's with all these old fighters doing great in the current division? Could it be that it sucks so much? The Vitali version and the Wilder version of Arreola are not equivalent. Vitali would have stopped Kownacki, brutally so, and people today would laugh at the matchup because Vits beat up on a short fat guy.

Sefer Seferi is warmed up garbage and Pianeta is ANCIENT. There's a reason that Fury picked those two to comeback against - because they sucked. Maybe if Tyson Fury had matched Charlie Zelenoff you'd also give him credit?

Tyson Fury weighed over 400lb when he began his comeback. He had to lose 63kg in a year. If you think that you can regain the muscle lost from that in a couple of months then I'm the one that's laughing. It's clear that tthe version of Fury that fought in Wilder 1 was as weak as a kitten compared to the guy that fought in Wilder 2. The difference being that Fury had been training intensively to regain his muscle and form.

So now Wilder knocking Arreola out with a broken hand 'proves' that the version he beat was the same as the one Vitali beat? You said that you studied logic?

I fail to see your point. I don't dispute Wilder hits harder than Vitali. I dispute that your comparison of OLD Arreola vs YOUNG Arreola as a means of comparing punching power is valid.

Yeah because one version of Arreola was prime and the other version was OLD and had lost to Kownacki and Stiverne

Glad to clear that up.

No its not.

Which two fights did Fury lose?

Now you're aware after I rubbing your nose in it like a puppy taking a dump on the carpet.

I noticed that you conveniently ignored the bit where I explain why Marciano was a more clever fighter than Wilder. The bit that you were waiting all thread to discuss. Way to go champ.

You misquoted me.

1) Povetkin was under the banning threshold for meldonium. Well under.
2) If Povetkin was banned for meldonium then post the proof. I say you're lying.

That's got nothing to do with Wilder ducking Povetkin. And he did duck him.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

Plenty of people have. Plenty of boxers have. You're displaying your ignorance here. For example, Gerrie Coetzee regularly broke his hands in fights and still KTFO his opponents. He finished the Dokes fight with a broken hand.

I notice Choklab liked my last post and you received no likes on yours. OMG I guess, using your logic, THAT MEANS YOU ARE LOSING In actual fact I'm owning you due to my superior application of logic and facts.

 

When Choklab likes your post, you know you done ****ed up and you're on the losing end of the argument.

Mcvey put it perfectly here.

 

Wrong. Choklab isn't afraid to express an unpopular opinion in the face of the groupies and I salute him for that.

 

OK. I'll give you (and him) that. But that's where my respect for him ends. He's a disingenuous, dishonest, biased beyond belief (just see a Cleveland Williams or Rocky Marciano thread), low-life pos.

Bottom line, if someone like Chok agrees with or supports my post, I'd be very skeptical as to it's quality.

 

Normally C level for you is top 20 in rankings from 1000+ pro fighters? Sure then a lot of pro fighters for you are below Z level.


Rock was 184-185 lber usually.

If he was 220 lber with low fat, then.

He at least had 2 hands unlike modern local god for murcian village.

 

Is it COMMON to see guys having that sort of fortitude? Stop playing word games

Stiverne was the rightful #1 contender. You're acting like Stiverne was some local bouncer or something. Losing to the #1 contender doesn't make you garbage even if the era is weak.

Yes this era is weak and so was Rocky's lol. You literally had a bunch of old 37+ shopworn guys dominating the division.

Yes Vitali would probably beat up Kownacki. He only looked good against slow stationary zero defense targets like peter, Briggs, etc.

Glad we're finally agreeing on some things. Areola was not shot but this is a weak era.

You said fury looked like utter dog shyt against pinata and safari and that is simply not true.

This is why our discussion keeps going off track because instead of simply saying my bad you changed the convo to say those two were horrible opponents.

Show me the post where I said fury can regain dozens of lbs of muscle in a couple of months?

And fury was always a fatass you are acting like he was some sort of trim athletic specimen for his cocaine binge. And he was fat when he beat wilder in the rematch. 270 is an absurdly high weight even for him even in this era of behemoths.

Literally not once in all 10 pages did I say the Areola wilder beat was the same as the one Vitali beat. By all means continue to lie and defeat your own made up arguments.

All I said was wilder stopping an opponent whom Vitali couldn't put a dent in despite having a broken hand is an impressive display of power. Areola had declined but still had his best asset of durability. Again, if Areola was getting bounced off the canvas dozens of times or stopped multiple times before facing wilder I wouldn't bother bringing this up.

You apparently think knocking a huge durable guy out with a broken hand is no big deal. I do. Let's leave it at that because you refuse to move past this point.

You didn't need to. You kept creating an argument I never made and argued against it. Literally never claimed wilder injured himself beforehand.

Show me 3 fights where someone knocks out a large durable opponent with a broken hand.

Show me 2.

That was a typo. I meant that Fury had 2 fights that took nothing out of him. Where is the proof fury was as weak as a kitten? Don't back out of your statement now.

No I wrote several pages back that I'm aware you said more and then you even acknowledged it.

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I went in depth in multiple posts why your assertion that Rocky was more clever than Wilder is a strange take and you did not respond. So it's actually you ignoring things.

Go back and reply to them if you want to discuss it, I'm tired of repeating myself to a guy with short term memory loss and reading comprehension issues.

Weaver is a durable opponent? This is news to me.

Still waiting for you to actually explain at what point in the debate you owned me. I've asked at least 5x now.

 

Anyone and their mom can get in the top 20 nowadays.

Chisora has been C level for the vast majority of his career. He simply isn't that good and loses quite often whenever he steps up. He is roughly equivalent to guys like George Chuvalo, Bert Cooper, Chris Areola, Roy Williams, etc. Big strong durable guys who always show up ready to fight but lack the skill and ability to truly keep up with the elites and win a title.

The fact Chisora has failed to win a belt in a weak era full of splintered titles is very telling. He has gotten many opportunities and just can't cut it.

 

Wilder hit harder but wouldn’t last six rounds with him.

 

Why would he need to last 4 rounds longer than it took to KO the wee feller?

 

He wouldn't need to

 

Can you expand on this please?