Ingemar Johansson, 1958 vs Frank Bruno, 1986, who wins and why?

Well, you made the list.
That was your iniitial contribution to the thread, I'm not sure what point you were making. It didn't really work for me, that's all.
No, I don't think it matters at all, but I wasn't the one who made the list.

Yeah, you could add this guy and that guy, X, Y, Z, or either of the lists, I'm sure. That's my point.
You just seemed to pull a few names off of Bruno's record, pull a few less off of Johansson's record, and act like you made a point.
I'm not suggesting you do anything else, it's a boring endeavour isn't it.
Suffice to say you reckon Bruno would win, I get that.

 

At least there´s an argument for a fighter who could stay into the rounds with the big boys (but losing all), while ther Coopers and Londons got stopped dozens of times against the CWs of its time.

 

And Bruno could actually win this, yes.
He just needs to get Johansson on the end of that jab and keep the pressure on and get him out of their as early as possible.
But it's easier said than done, and Johansson just has to avoid getting hit too much and land his right hand on Frank's jaw. Which won't be easy either.
So, a good fight, I say.

 

CW Holyfield would have stopped almost everyone mentioned in this thread so far.

 

I don know whats so hard to grasp here.
One fellow is 1-2 against his biggest name, while Bruno had to face top 5 H2H fighters of all time THREE times. Have you ever seen Floyd Patterson on a top ten H2H HW list? Exclude them, we have London, Cooper and Erskine vs.

LeDoux
Eklund
Coetzee
Tillis
Bugner
Ribalta
Coetzer
Williams
Ferguson
McCall

9 of them by knockout. And that exludes a 190CW vs 220lb HW debate.

 

I think this is what you are trying to say:

Johansson (26-2) wins:

Machen
Patterson

Johansson losses:

Patterson
Patterson

Bruno (40-5) wins:

Coetzee
McCall

Bruno losses:

Smith
Witherspoon
Tyson
Lewis
Tyson

 

Bruno lost to Tyson and Lewis, who you'd have on a "H2H top 5", so what ? yeah, he lost, he went 5 rounds, 7 rounds and 3 rounds against those two.
So, yeah, forget it.
Exclude them, along with Patterson, who Ingo was 1-2 against, okay.

Don't forget Eddie Machen.

Ok, I'm with you ..... but you lose me at "LeDoux" ..... I mean, Scott LeDoux ?
Anders Eklund ? Okay, why not Hein ten Hoff or Heinz Neuhaus then ? Or other Euro level fighters on Ingo's record.

I don't think you've given it much thought.

 

Don't you mean who Ingo was 1-2 against?

 

Yes.
Fixed it. Thanks.

 

I guess that Bruno is 0-2 or 0-1 against his biggest name, and something like 1-5 or 2-5 against men ranked in the top ten.

 

I’m going to go with Bruno. You had to be a somewhat big, powerful and physically imposing fighter to beat Frank Bruno and even THEN it wasn’t easy. Bonecrusher Smith, Tim Witherspoon and Lennox Lewis all needed come from behind efforts to stop Frank and they had to take some nasty shots before it happened. Ingo didn’t have that great of a chin and as far as I can see wasn’t any more technically sound than Bruno. Sure, I know Ingo’s win over Patterson was probably better than any win Frank had. But if we’re going to judge fantasy fights based on that criteria alone then Buster Douglas would beat most greats.

 

Its pretty simple.
None of any of these names would be favored against Lewis, Tyson and Witherspoon. Bruno was winning a bout against Smith (who is known to win fights just by landing a bomb) but then lost, what could have happened to Patterson, Machen, London, Cooper as well. You can fill tons of pages in a single thread just by debating up and downs, the lack of boxing or the huge power of James Smith. It happened. Ok. Another guy happened to box 54 rounds with Williams, Patterson, Frazier, Liston and Quarry just to find himself pollaxed inside a round with Johansson (Machen). It happened as well. The mistake is to assume that both these cases reflect the average H2H ability of both Bruno and Johansson.
We can skip Patterson vs Lewis or Tyson (first sentence).

The rest of the names are winning performances:

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vs

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Lets say

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and

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You have to assume that

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does much better than

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to make a case for Johansson beeing a better H2H fighter than Bruno in an evaluation of wins. Why? Because if

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goes 50/50 against

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, they are right in the field of boxers Bruno used to knock out. And thats ten names vs four!

@janitor We already know the twisted world of janitorism leads to putting Corbett against Tua or 190CWs into ring with late 80s/90s 230-pounders. Or simply by just ignoring like 10 fights, 13 losses or something in a resume to back up the agenda. Keep going.

 

Now this I have to question.

I don't think that the sample of top fighters that he met was big enough to establish this point.

If he had fought Michael Spinks, then my money would be on Spinks quite frankly!

 

I see what you did there

Well played mate.

 

There is no way Machen or Patterson lose to a single one of these guys. Especially when Frank beat them.

All those guys were fed to Frank as the away fighter. Even McCall who had previously struggled with the grandfatherly Larry Holmes.

patterson and Machen were elite at the time. There is no elite fighter on that win list for Frank.

where exactly do you think Eklund was placed when Frank fought him? Williams was losing to Morrison. Coetzee losing to old man Foreman. Ribalta and ledeox were dead men walking. Tillis and Bugner had absolutely no appetite to win fights anymore. Ferguson did the old flip flop. None of these guys were live for Frank.

Brian London was live. Cooper was coming into his prime, not quite there but always live. Erskine was live and rated. Richardson too. Franco cavicchi beats Eklund 7 days a week.

names like Ribalta, Tillis, Coetzee and Furguson sound more familiar to younger fans but please do some research on where these guys were when they met Frank. They were on a working holiday to London. Not that interested in winning. Totally hand picked. Just like the opponents of Brian Neilson.

Using franks losing efforts to better men, that also beat Ingo, like Tyson and Lewis is entirely inconsequential here. He lost.

When he fought them, The guys Frank beat really all sucked.