Of course, it's Tokyo Douglas here, against Kingston Frazier. But as good as Buster was, and as vulnerable has Joe looked, is this a loss for the Smoke?? 15 rounds.
You're not fightin' out of shape Mike Tyson, You're not fightin' Old Trevor Berbick, You're fightin' Joe Frazier!
Close. Imo Buster paced himself a bit in the middle rounds to come out stronger at the end of the Tyson fight. But with the additional power to Ali or Bugner, he could stagger Joe easier, maybe even drop him. If we assume Godzilla Douglas > Vegas Douglas, I see a winable dicision over 12 here. If he won´t be able to hurt Joe, thats bad news for him after 10 ten rounds and his bout to lose in a 15-rounder. If he won´t be able to stagger him in a 12-rounder, thats a very close bout but I´d favor Frazier. All of that includes the chance of Frazier landing a solid hook to his jaw too. @Fergy Not just this thread, but we see 80/90s fighters in 15 round threads more often. Again, many of these boxers never fought 15 rounds, which makes an evaluation in a fanatsy situation even worse. Nobody wants to see a 15 rounds of Holmes vs Lewis with the benefit of the doubt for Holmes with that three additional rounds, but instead 12 rounds of action with what is available for both fighters.
Mmmm not really, Foreman had his number and would have beaten any version of Fraizer, including the 1971 FOTC one.
Never said Frazier would beat Foreman, but it's clear as day to me (as well as most others I imagine) this was not the same Frazier that beat Ali two years prior. One only needs to look at Frazier's two "defenses" after Ali, to see the FOTC took quite a bit out of Joe.
FOTC did a little bit of damage, but verrryyy little. Not convincing enough to think the FOTC frazier would have fared any better. I think Frazier was the "I did the best I could with what I had" kind of fighter, he would have always been a tough fight for ali, before or after Exile, would have always lost to foreman before or after FOTC. Maybe history would have changed a little bit if he met fighters he had the opportunity of facing like his best friend Norton or even Sonny Liston. I think Liston would crush him , and i believe this is why he refused with the aging big bear. Btw, is it true Joe didn't want no part of Sonny? I heard frazier or yank Durham was the one who kept Joe away from the dangerous Liston. If so, do you have any sources? As you're always an expert in this field
The 3 extra rounds will sort the boys from the men. It could also be the difference between winning or losing. But I thank you for the advice good sir.
I agree with Swag. The fight of the century took a hell of a lot out of both men bt more Joe imo. He was definitely on the slide by the time he faced Foreman. That's why I put that version in here. Any prime Joe destroys Buster, definitely. But a slightly Faded Frazier facing a man who had one great fight in his career, that s more on a fair level for me. For what's it worth, I've got Joe coming back from being out Boxed and rocked, to pull out a late ko.
The “King card” version of Douglas was a very reliable, seasoned fighter who proved to be a world beater. The Tokyo performance was just the cherry on the cake. And deserved. Frazier of 1973? This was already the guy who had been hospitalised after beating Ali. It is well documented that it was an almost career ending win. A exhibition with Cleveland Williams was arranged in order to see if the champion could fight again for real. And whilst it proved Frazier could comeback he was eased back very gently and the record shows that not all of Joe Frazier came back after the Ali fight. I love Frazier. I think pre fight of the century beats any version of Buster Douglas as well as he beat Buster Mathis. But 1973 Frazier really could run into the kind of upset that Douglas produced in Tokyo. Buster was really ready at that point, in a way he never could be again. More ready for a Frazier who was no more ready to cope with Douglas than Mike Tyson was.
Best maybe to just keep in mind they could go 15 for a stamina advantage, but more than that is pretty much not "fair" ^^. Btw, I didn´t saw this thread was for the 73 version, but peak for peak
The difference here is heart. Mike proved he had heart with Douglas and Lewis. The problem is that age old (and perfectly legitimate) saw about how Tyson just couldn't seem to get knocked down and get back up to win. Frazier did that more than once. Not just that, but Mike never got the crap knocked out of him (ala Frazier/Foreman), put down on the canvas, then got up clapping his gloves ready to fight again. There's nothing in Mike's fight history that points to that great a Championship Heart, though he was without question a great...a top 10 ATG in fact, at least imo. Douglas didn't have a great chin sooo...Frazier by ko in 8. I kind of doubt Frazier gets knocked down.
Verrryyyy little? Frazier was in the hospital for an extended period of time, and their were rumors he'd actually died from the beating he took (when Ali's entourage told him of this, Ali started crying and said if it was true he was never going to box again). He also did not fight for the rest of the year, and when he came back he looked less than stellar against two questionable defenses which got people asking if Frazier was washed up, and saying he lost a step. It's unreasonable to think that an event like TFOTC did "verrry little" damage, to Frazier who already had a multitude of health problems going into the bout (arthritis, high blood pressure, cataract, etc) which were greatly exasperated not only by the bout itself, but the emotional intensity as well. Of course he would've faired better. Hell he did fair better in the 2nd fight, when he was a washed up shell Thank you mate! I could see an argument either way. I honestly don't know. It wouldn't surprise me, if Frazier and management did avoid Liston. Liston was black-balled, and the powers that be wanted nothing to do with him. For that reason, Liston was seen as a high-risk, low reward type of fighter. One could even argue he was avoided even moreso, than when he was at his peak, as back then, he solidified himself on the map, and was the man to beat. I know Liston's own comments regarding a match with Frazier were "It would be like shooting fish in a barrel". I personally think Frazier would've defeated Liston in '68-69 when the matchup was most reasonable. That being said, if I were Frazier's manager, I would've avoided this fight like the plague. Their were far easier fights against higher rated men than Liston, and though I would lean towards Frazier winning in that time period, I also recognize that Sonny represented a stylistic hurdle for Frazier even at his advanced age, and a win over Liston would've meant relatively little, given his reputation at the time. It just wasn't worth the risk, especially when their were as I stated, higher rated fighters, more stylistically favorable to Frazier (ala Quarry and Ellis).