Is Pacquiao p4p number one if he beats Spence?

It can make sense depending on the level objectivity the person you're debating with is dealing with. I like to consider the tangible and not look at the abstract when making absolute conclusions. Without Crawford as a scalp I can't put him at the top spot even if he beats Spence and Porter. You can definitely argue the x factor which would be his recent wins as you so politely considered. The details that make me sway away from your determination would be the parallel between their fights with Horn and the logical appreciation of Crawfords skill set and superiority of his competition. Sure a good portion is heavily weighted on speculation because Crawford lack that career defining win, I'll give you that.

 

Fair enough, he was still an undefeated heavily avoided middle weight champ. Canelo is just cleaning shop and beating those his promotional authority are putting in front of him.

 

thats not how it works. this shouldnt need explaining. what you do, is only as important as who you do it against, when assessing ability. beating floyd aint gonna make logan p4p, cause floyd is no threat, regardless of history.

 

And Crawford's resume is absolutely dreadful.

 

I'm not trying to convince you and I'm not even saying that your viewpoint is wrong. I'm just stating my case.

The version of Pac that beat Thurman would KO Crawford's entire 147 resume in faster, more brutal fashion. Yes, even the drained to death Horn that Crawford took out.

Going back further, Pac would KO Ricky Burns and Viktor Postol. And he'd retire Gamboa.

 

its not great. but he started out a teo, then did what taylor did, THEN became ww champ. and he hast been shown to have dropped off. he hasnt proven to be the best at welter, but hes proven to belong in the talks.

 

Crawford's in the conversation for sure. But based on actual resume, Spence's resume is leagues above Crawford and he's the much more prove fighter. So if Pac beats Spence, he should be P4P #1.

 

Nobody agrees with you about leagues better. Slightly better is even subjective.

 

All valid points but mainly based on relativism philosophy. Pack never fought those men and the only measuring stick we have is Horn and their respective skill sets and abilities. Based on what has transpired we only have the facts.

A maturing Pac fighting an undefeated Gamboa would have been competitive in my opinion however based on what we know today Gomboa would have likely folded to the pressure but I doubt he doesn't get into a mini war with the cuban. Crawford had a moment of vulnerability during that fight, other than that he's been nothing less than dominant, although the competition has been less than stellar.

Knowing the promotional factors we can reasonably argue that top rank wanted to steer clear of putting pac in with Terrence. Pac was still viable and could sell why risk a cash cow to promote and invest in a less marketable Crawford. Too much risk for a unrealized; although highly, equitable Crawford.

 

It would increase his ATG status significantly while doing less for his present p4p status. My view of p4p status is that it's unaffected by one off extraordinary feats and is more about what a person is capable of repeating for several years to come. Under the right conditions, ordinary people can achieve incredible things, but it takes more than luck to predictably replicate those results. At the moment, he's highly skilled, but really worn down quite a bit from his physical peak. He's a freak of nature to still be operating where he is today but even though he is still world class, I don't think he's pound for pound material any more.

Beating Spence, no matter who you are, would be the kind of achievement that almost nobody today has. There aren't a lot of active fighters who've defeated another pound for pound fighter. You could point to Lopez' recent victory over Lomachenko, Fury over Klitschko, and maybe Gonzalez over Estrada. Would that be it?

If it were any fighter that wasn't past prime who did it, I would probably give them pound for pound credit. But with a 42 year old victor, my instinct is either to claim a fluke or to downgrade my estimation of Errol Spence Jr.. If Spence loses, is there any coming back from that humiliation? Can anyone ever take him seriously again? Realistically, it's still in the realm of possibility. Either a lucky punch, or Spence getting injured could do it. He might train irresponsibly and get concussed sparring, which would soften him up for Pacquiao. There are avenues to victory for Pac, but they are so slim. He would have to slip through the eye of a needle.

I want to try and put things into perspective, if I may. It is very rare for a fighter over 35 to beat a prime pound for pound fighter. Usually, when it's happened the old veteran was 36-38 not 42. For reference, the ancient Hopkins was all of 36 when he beat Trinidad and people weren't giving him much chance. Mayweather and Golovkin were 36 when they fought Canelo. Ray Robinson was 36 when he beat Fullmer and 37 when he beat Basilio. Archie Moore, the old mongoose, was almost 41 when he defeated Harold Johnson although he had some practice beating him at 35, 37, and 38. Dick Tiger beat Nino Benvenuti when he was 39.

Foreman was 45 when he beat Michael Moore but Moore was a touch outside of the pound for pound ranks. Although, one has to wonder if he should have been considering he'd just beaten Evander Holyfield who Ring had placed beforehand at number six. Anyway, that didn't catapult Foreman to the top of the pound for pound rankings. I think everyone recognized it for the nearly random occurrence that it was. Foreman's a physical freak, and a right beast with all time great power, but he was losing that fight badly right up until that hail Mary bolt out of the blue.

 

LEAGUES, bro. LEAGUES.

 

Christ that's a quality post if Im allowed to say lol.

 

Look at Pac's last 3 fights...

He KO'd Mattysse who had KO'd a random Thai dude, but KO'd the always game and rugged Emmanuel Taylor who'd never been stopped.

He shut out Broner 12-0.

He beat Thurman's ass.


Look at Crawford's last 3 fights...

KO'd a shot to smithereens Amir Khan.

KO'd EK, but was hurt, got dropped, and lost early rounds.

Was losing rounds to a shot Brook before he badly hurt him w/ a jab.

Pac's not only got a better 3 fight span than Crawford, but he holds the far more significant single win. So beating Spence would nicely supplement a 3 fight stretch where he dominated 2 guys and beat a prime undefeated Thurman.

 

Maybe, but even if he doesn't, he'd be in the second place right after Canelo.

If Pac beat Spence, it's not the increase of P4P rank that would be the best 'prize' he gets, but his overall resume. Pac's resume will be considered better than Mayweather.