Fighters of the Century per Futch/Dundee/Clancy/Duva/Chargin - The Welterweights.

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by JohnThomas1, Jun 26, 2021.



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  1. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member Full Member

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    Espada had only lost to one man, Cuevas, in half a decade. He'd only ever been stopped by one man. He was coming off a world title fight loss to Cuevas. Admittedly his competition hadn't exactly been stellar but he hadn't lost to anyone either excepting the malevolent Mexican.
     
    JohnThomas1, Jul 1, 2021
    JohnThomas1, Jul 1, 2021
    #91
  2. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    That hardly makes him a convincing contender.
     
    Unforgiven, Jul 1, 2021
    Unforgiven, Jul 1, 2021
    #92
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  3. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    I think, if i had to summarise my position, (without getting drawn into a discussion that has already lasted pages!) I would say that rather than saying just "resume" I try to get an indication of where a fighter's career indicates they lie in terms of what they are.

    As stated, if you're comparing lists of wins there is little argument that Basilio did the better work. But Basilio has a number of indicative losses as well, and they are losses that it is almost impossible to imagine Hearns suffering. I don't go into these in real detail above, but I won't bother to cover them off again here. Meanwhile Hearns cantered - cantered - to wins over a larger number of ranked fighters (less dangerous than the ones Basilio beat).

    My basic position would be to accept there is an argument for ranking Basilio higher and Hearns lower, but to absolutely reject the position that it's impossible to rank Hearns higher without leaning heavily on head-to-head.

    Nevertheless, my appraisal of Hearns as absolutely elite among the welters - ranked only a line below Robinson and Leonard (he might actually beat Kid Gavilan, for example) - does enhance his ranking for me.
     
    McGrain, Jul 1, 2021
    McGrain, Jul 1, 2021
    #93
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  4. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member Full Member

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    True but there's nothing making him a really weak one either. There's no bad losses in years. Hearns treated him like a 5th rater.
     
    JohnThomas1, Jul 1, 2021
    JohnThomas1, Jul 1, 2021
    #94
  5. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    Well, I largely agree.
    I've never been one to make a firm delineation between "accomplishments" and "head to head", and the two concepts overlap heavily for me anyway.
     
    Unforgiven, Jul 1, 2021
    Unforgiven, Jul 1, 2021
    #95
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  6. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    I'd expect Hearns to beat the best version of Espada quite easily too.
    Not sure that does a huge amount for his resume though.
     
    Unforgiven, Jul 1, 2021
    Unforgiven, Jul 1, 2021
    #96
  7. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member Full Member

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    I'd expect him to beat around half the top 10 in history. The welterweights were insanely stacked during his time. Hearns, Cuevas, SRL, Duran, Benitez, Palomino and a few decent contenders. It was a WOW time in boxing.
     
    JohnThomas1, Jul 1, 2021
    JohnThomas1, Jul 1, 2021
    #97
  8. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    Yes. It was a great era. (as was Ross and McLarnin's)

    Hearns fought two of those you mention, at welterweight.
    Going 1-1.
     
    Unforgiven, Jul 1, 2021
    Unforgiven, Jul 1, 2021
    #98
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  9. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member Full Member

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    I don't rate the Ross/McLarnin era near as good at it's best point. Not even close. Not many in history would make a very big impact. The H2H strength is frightening.
     
    JohnThomas1, Jul 1, 2021
    JohnThomas1, Jul 1, 2021
    #99
  10. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    You do seem to favour the late-70s-early-mid-1980s quite often.
     
    Unforgiven, Jul 1, 2021
    Unforgiven, Jul 1, 2021
    #100
  11. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member Full Member

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    Well it was my era but i certainly stand by my comment and don't believe it biased.

    There isn't much between Ross's rating at 135 and 147 and he's a bit undersized IMO when thrown in with fully fledged welterweights of quality like Hearns, SRL and co. Undergunned for mine. Sure Duran had a short stint of greatness there but there's only one Duran. Ross would be one heckuva junior welter. For his three fights against McLarnin the highest he scaled was 141 and the lowest 137 1/2. McLarnin is similar for me.
     
    JohnThomas1, Jul 1, 2021
    JohnThomas1, Jul 1, 2021
    #101
  12. Jason Thomas

    Jason Thomas Boxing Addict Full Member

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    These ratings are not bad, but I would rate Leonard over Armstrong, and switch Gavilan and Basilio.

    The biggest omission is Jimmy McLarnin. I would put him in and drop Walker, who I believe did better work at higher weights.
     
    Jason Thomas, Jul 1, 2021
    Jason Thomas, Jul 1, 2021
    #102
  13. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    That Cuevas wasn't top 3 is probably a better proof of how insanely strong the division was at the time, than an indictment of Cuevas' quality.
     
    Bokaj, Jul 1, 2021
    Bokaj, Jul 1, 2021
    #103
  14. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Yes, the era was incredibly strong but I find it hard to crown a win as 'one of the best in welterweight history', when the fighter who the win is over wasn't even the third best man in the world at the time. Leonard himself has three that are better. Duran arguably has two.
     
    George Crowcroft, Jul 1, 2021
    George Crowcroft, Jul 1, 2021
    #104
  15. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    One of the best performances rather than best wins.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2021
    Bokaj, Jul 1, 2021
    Bokaj, Jul 1, 2021
    #105
    George Crowcroft likes this.
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