I would jab Sonny, when he comes into range, I would tag him with a sneaky right hand, and run for dear life, Ha, Ha, Lol. my friend.
Bob Arum: “ Liston was a coward.” Easy for a guy to say who’s never boxed and likely never been in a fight
Ali was poison for Liston, style wise, with all other things being equal. And they weren't equal. Age and level were on Ali's side. Liston had little to no chance against Ali. Even when Ali was past his best, he was still poison for Sluggers, even prime Sluggers. Foreman was a prime example. IMHO, A young Holmes would have accomplished the same thing with Liston. I have no way of knowing if there was any fix in on either fight. It's never been proven to me. I CAN say that I don't think it was necessary. I believe Ali would have won both fights with or without fixes. Losing to Ali badly certainly doesn't make Sonny cowardly. Ali was just too much for him, in ability, speed, and styles. Even if Ali had been older, and Sonny in his prime, I believe Ali would have won. (See Ali - Foreman. Nobody even hints at a fix in that fight.)
Walcott, Wlad, Lyle, Willard, Shavers and Lewis. Off the top of my head. Throw in Moore, who campaigned a lot at HW.
I agree with most ,, But lets be real here a 59 60 Liston does not go out like that ,,, It is a good fight ,,,prob loses anyway ...He was past it ,that simple ,,It happens to every fighter... but Liston just wasn't a slugger , he had that ATG jab that lead the way, good d fense too.. His game was solid all around , imo ,,, ... He just came across the most athletic HW ever coming into his Prime, 10 years is 10 years ,,, thats a huge adv..
Arum waits until Liston's been dead 50 years, Arum himself is pretty much in his twilight years ..... then calls him out as a coward.
I meant three ATG heavyweights. So only Wlad and Lewis are valid (I guess you could make an argument for Holy as well). They also had the benefit of modern nutrition, Liston did not have access to which added longevity to their careers.
Why do they have to be ATGs? I just gave you several examples that isn't in any way unique to still be in your prime at that age. It's rare, yeas, but it is also rare to wipe out the former champ just before. Actually I don't think anyone has done that at the age you claim Liston was. Liston, whether 32 or 34, is the same as any other fighter for me. Like Walcott, Moore, Lewis whomever - I reckon they are around their prime around the time they have their best performances. Walcott was 37 when he won the title, that doesn't mean I will automatically say he was past his prime, since it was then he recorded his best wins after all. Does anyone say that Walcott was past prime for the Louis fights? Lyle for Ali and Foreman? Shavers for Holmes 1 and Norton? I haven't seen anyone say that, because they recognise that they were still performing as well as ever and therefor accept those fighters as exceptions. And let's not forget Clay was only 22 and hadn't looked prime in any previous performance. In what little we got to see of the rematch, Liston did look like he had clearly slowed down, though. It could have been that he was more cautious also, but he did look clearly more sluggish in those two minutes than he did early on in the first imo.
I think it’s pretty obvious he was past his prime against Ali. In the previous 3 years his only fights were 2 one round blow outs against Patterson then it’s clear that at 32 or 34 or whatever he wasn’t a prime time Sonny Liston. Another factor is the performance of Ali himself. His previous fight against Cooper he was sloppy and complacent, they probably thought he would blast this kid out in double quick time that he didn’t need to be at his best. The problem was they faced an Ali who was disciplined and used all the attributes which were kryptonite to Sonny, it didn’t auger well. The score cards had it pretty even but Ali was putting a sustained beating on Sonny. I don’t see Liston as a quitter there was nothing in his history to think this, but he certainly looked a beaten man when sitting in that corner at the end.
He actually believes Bob 'The Lizard' Arum. This context of these fights are extremely suspicious and shrouded. There were numerous shady and complex characters surrounding the fight, including Liston himself. I mean, for comparison, just look into all the shady **** around Norris, Palermo, Carbo, the IBC etc. not too many years before this - how shady it is, and that is just the known stuff. Now imagine these massive, odd Heavyweight title fights with huge stakes, with the NOI (and their 'military' unit surrounding Ali), Liston's shifty connections, the weird 'secret' rematch clause, John Vitale's comments to Johnny Tocco concerning the outcome etc. This is just the known stuff. I don't believe Liston was a coward. I think he was 'coerced' to do things, and by this point in his life had become extremely jaded.
I agree. Nah, Ali was still too green at the time. The Liston that beat Williams beats that version of Ali, maybe even by KO. Prime vs prime, Ali would probably win it on points due to his amazing speed.
