Sugar Ray Robinson vs. Joey Maxim (No heat wave)

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by William Walker, Jul 27, 2021.



  1. Boxed Ears

    Boxed Ears this my daddy's account (RIP daddy) Full Member

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    Growing up as a boy in north Tidworth, forced to stay awake in church regularly, I thought a rather grave disappointment. But not as big a disappointment as this thread, I wager.
     
  2. Saintpat

    Saintpat Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Doc Kearns was quite the character, which comes across in the writing of AJ Liebling.

    Tell me more about his book. I didn’t know he wrote one. Sounds like something I need to put my hands on.
     
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  3. JWSoats

    JWSoats Active Member Full Member

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    His autobiography was titled "The Million Dollar Gate", written by Jack Kearns with Oscar Fraley. Oscar Fraley co-wrote the book "The Untouchables" with Eliot Ness, on which the TV series and movie were based. The Kearns book was released in July 1963 within a month of the passing of Kearns. The title of the book derives from the Jack Dempsey - Georges Carpentier fight, which produced the first million dollar gate in history. It is a first-person account of Kearns' life, beginning with his account of stowing away aboard a ship headed for Alaska at the time of the 1898 gold rush. He was discovered aboard and held prisoner while the ship anchored about a quarter mile off the Alaskan coast. Somehow he was able to jump overboard and swim to shore in the freezing waters where he was assisted ashore by a group of hoboes who gave him dry clothes and some stew of which he said nothing ever tasted better. Thus begins a lifelong collection of stories which brings him up close and personal with anybody who was anybody, the famous and infamous - if you will, the good, bad, and ugly. It covers his own career as a boxer and later manager. One day a gang of toughs took him on in a barroom brawl, and someone came to his aid and probably saved his life in the process. That good Samaritan turned out to be a very young Jack Dempsey, and thus started a chain of events that changed their lives and the course of pro boxing. Throughout the book Kearns boasts of his exploits and escapades in working with such champions and contenders as Dempsey, Mickey Walker, Joey Maxim, Archie Moore, Kenny Lane, etc. He boasts that he would do anything to win, all in the name of 'looking out for me and mine.' His exploits are outrageous, conniving, funny, and always colorful. How much of it is truth and how much is fiction is hard to say. He takes great pride in how he was able to con various people along the way, and by the end of the book the reader is wondering to what extent the reader has been conned as well. In any event, it is a most interesting read - a slice of history as seen through the eyes of an observer, somewhat like a Forrest Gump, but unlike Forrest Gump, was a willing and active participant who knowingly and actively seized upon every moment and opportunity in shaping his life and times. The book is available online - here's a typical used-book site that carries it -

    https://www.abebooks.com/first-edition/Million-Dollar-Gate-Kearns-Jack-Doc/30942927364/bd
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2021
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  4. ETM

    ETM I thought I did enough to win. Full Member

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    Robinson was doing the fighting for both of them. Maxim was not letting his hands go. He just plodded forward because that's all he could do against the quicker Robinson. That's one night the ham in Sugar Ray miscalculated by probably expending too much energy. He could have probably rested a couple of rounds.
     
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  5. ETM

    ETM I thought I did enough to win. Full Member

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    Maxim won that night the only way he could win. Without those circumstances he loses 10 out of 10.
     
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  6. Pepsi Dioxide

    Pepsi Dioxide Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Most likely scenario...Robinson wins a decision, then decisions maxim in a rematch, returns to middleweight.

    Insanely unlikely but fun scenario....Robinson wins a decision, then as light heavyweight and middleweight champion, is offered a dump truck of money and fights Marciano for the heavyweight title
     
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  7. Bah Lance

    Bah Lance Active Member banned Full Member

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    I disagree. Without the heat, Maxim would have just volume punched, grappled, and spoiled his way to an ugly victory against the smaller man as he did against Patterson.

    As is, Maxim adjusted to the heat, canned his infamous volume punching, pressured, and let Sugar wear down.
     
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  8. Jel

    Jel Obsessive list maker Full Member

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    Really excellent post.
     
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  9. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member Full Member

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    X2 Jel. Hard to argue with anything in there and some great insights as well.
     
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  10. Saintpat

    Saintpat Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    There’s a story about the 1926 Rose Bowl.

    It was the first time a team from the South defeated a power from outside the region. Alabama beat Washington, 20-19, in Pasadena, This gave birth to Alabama as a major college football entity and gave rise to football across the South being looked upon as on par with that in other areas of the country.

    Alabama scored all its points in the third quarter. Washington’s best player (everyone played both offense and defense in those days) left with an injury and under the substitution rules of the day he could not re-enter until the start of the next period. So it all happened when he was on the sideline.

    After the game, when the Washington coach shook hands with Wallace Wade, the Alabama coach, he said (according to legend), “Any other day we’d have beat you.”

    Wade, who wasn’t a man to ever smile, looked him in the eye and said, ‘I didn’t come out here to play a goddamn series.’

    That’s the tale of this fight.

    Maxim didn’t come to fight a series. And Ray never after tried to make a rematch.

    They fought. Joey won. Ray lost.

    /end
     
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  11. Jason Thomas

    Jason Thomas Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I re-watched the Maxin-Robinson fight three times over the last two days. It is one of my favorite fights to watch as my reaction is so different from the consensus.

    Robinson was throwing more punches, but other than the flurries to the body (ineffectual), was he landing them? Maxiim was average offensively, but he was a master at blocking, rolling, slipping, ducking, and controlling distance. Maxim's jabbing was the more effective and kept Robinson at a distance. Maxim with his defensive skills did a first rate job parrying punches coming from so far away and that he could see coming.

    Even in the relatively few times Robinson got home what looks like a clean shot to the head, such as in the third round, Maxim didn't blink and just keeps coming forward. Many maintain that Robinson punched himself out trying to KO Maxim, but I think he probably gave up that idea after about the third round. He spent most of the fight retreating and going to the body. I think he was definitely trying to outpoint Maxim, not KO him.

    Most of Robinson's scoring was to the body, but didn't seem to have impact. Maxim threw fewer body shots, but they seemed to be more effective and appeared to sap Robinson.

    The announcer went on like Maxim wasn't doing anything, but he often was, although his short-arm punches coming in weren't flashy like Robinson's long range swings, he connected with the majority of them. One gets a better idea of the fight by watching it in silence.

    One tactic by Robinson I didn't understand. Why waste energy bending over and throwing a jab at the body? I guess it impressed the judges and impresses a lot of viewers, but it strikes me as a both ineffectual and wearing yourself out.

    This fight reminded me of a dog fighting a bear. The dog will jump around and make the beat look slow and clumsy, but the dog's nipping will have no effect on the bear. Whenever the bear makes contact with paw or tooth, he will do the damage.

    I thought the announcer's question about how it was possible for Maxim to survive so much punishment was nuts. I think Maxim was accurate in saying it was his physically easiest fight.

    Why? Size matters. Maxim was really a small heavyweight by the standards of the time who could dry out to under 175. Over his career he fought 7 men over 210, another 13 over 200, another 19 over 190, and that is of the weights I could find, not all of them. Sure, Robinson has a high KO percentage versus Maxim's, but what would Maxim's KO percentage have been if he was fighting welters and middles? As counter intuitive as it might be, I think Maxim was the harder puncher.

    My take and I understand it is a minority one.
     
  12. ETM

    ETM I thought I did enough to win. Full Member

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    He wasn't quick enough. He gonna volume punch air. Robinson was stinging him with counters when he did open up. As it was when Ray was essentially having a Heatstroke Maxim still landed next to nothing. Maybe he could volume punch heavyweights because they were slower.