Canelo Bivol at 168 or 175?

drenlou · Aug 1, 2021

JOKER said: ↑

What narrative? 8-10 week training camps are the norm.
Click to expand...

Exactly, and canelo is getting a 6 week training camp too.

C.J. · Aug 1, 2021

shadow111 said: ↑

We know that if they agree to fight at 168, this forum will go into full rage-mode over Canelo draining Bivol down a weight class, which will fit right into the Canelo demands and getting advantages narrative that continues to persist amongst his detractors.

I think it's important to dispel any myths about a potential Canelo Bivol fight at 168. Now of course with me even so much as talking about the fight happening at 168 I'll be accused of defending Canelo here and a potential draining of Bivol, that's to be expected and even understandable to an extent given all that has gone on with Canelo in terms of catchweights, rehydration clauses, and various fighters being drained over the years due to A-side demands. So you can accuse me of whatever you want, but I'm not arguing that it's OK to drain somebody or fight somebody like Bivol at a weight class below his own.

In fact, despite what you may think, I am staunchly against any A-side fighter "demanding" that his opponent cut weight to make him easier to beat. That's why I was so against what Mayweather did to Canelo, what Cotto did to Geale, what Pacquiao did to DLH and Cotto, etc. It's important to point out that I'm just a fan. I have no connection to Canelo or his team and I have no influence whatsoever on the decision-making process involved here between Canelo and Bivol as far as negotiations are concerned. I am not in any way trying to justify the fight being at 168 if it ends up happening there.

What I want more than anything is for Canelo to fight Bivol and for there not to be any controversy or excuses. And for that to occur, at least in the minds of most people on this forum, that will only be satisfied if the fight is at 175, Bivol's weight. I understand that, and I don't think it's unreasonable for Canelo to move up to 175 and fight Bivol at 175. After all, it wouldn't be Canelo's first rodeo at 175. He already fought Kovalev there and knocked him out. That would certainly be the weight that Canelo's detractors would need it to be at for a Canelo win to have a chance at being accepted or respected. (of course even at 175, a close decision win for Canelo would be still seen as a robbery by most, but that's par for the course)

But from a weight standpoint, I totally get that if the fight is agreed to at 168, regardless of how drained or unhealthy Bivol actually is fighting there, that the result will never be accepted by many posters on this forum and that it would fit right into the idea that continues to be perpetuated by his haters that Canelo makes demands of fighters and uses his A-side status to get advantages.

Now I've made it very clear that I don't see it that way, particularly in the sense that Canelo has up to this point never truly drained an opponent. Rehydration clauses in my view are not draining a fighter like catchweights are below a fighter's natural weight. And when Canelo has done catchweights, he's been the one who had to cut weight not his opponent. So in that sense, I don't think anyone can really argue against this logic.

Now on the surface, this situation seems very similar to Ward vs Dawson right. Ward was the champ at 168 and Dawson was the Champ at 175. Remember Dawson offered to move down to 168 to fight Ward and we know what happened. Dawson who was a corpse at 168, got easily outpointed, dominated really by Ward and was never the same again. I think we all would agree that the fight would have been very different if Ward moved up to 175 to fight Dawson. Maybe Dawson would have won, who knows. But he certainly would have stood a much better chance at his weight.

Now, this sounds pretty similar here from Bivol. Bivol on many occasions over a long period of time, even before Canelo was being talked about a possible opponent, has made it very clear that he has no problem fighting at 168. He repeatedly said he is very small for a Light Heavyweight and he insists that he would have no problem making 168.

So the first thing we need to do here is to dispel the myth that Canelo is somehow "demanding" that Bivol fight him at 168. No, no, lets be very clear. Bivol has taken it upon himself to say that he has no problem making 168. He's been saying this for years, and just said it again in a recent interview that he has no problem fighting Canelo at 168.

So whatever weight this fight ends of happening, lets be very clear that this is not a situation where Canelo or his team is demanding or insisting that Bivol kills himself to move down a weight to make him unhealthy. Because that's what the narrative is going to be if they agree to fight at 168 (or even at a catchweight between 168 and 175) which will only play into the lie that continues to be perpetuated that Canelo or his team make unreasonable demands of his opponents.

It's not unreasonable if the opponent has made it clear like Bivol has that he has no problem fighting at a lower weight. Now some people will point to Canelo saying he wanted to fight Mayweather at a catchweight in 2011, we've already discussed how misleading that interview was and why it was unreasonable and deceptive for Mayweather to do what he did. It was 2 years before they ended up fighting, and in those 2 years Mayweather went from fighting exclusively at 147 to moving up to 154 to fight Cotto and winning a title there. And in those 2 years Canelo, clearly was still putting on weight, he was much younger than Bivol is now and was still growing, so it became much tougher for Canelo to make 154 two years later after he was quoted about wanting a catchweight fight with Mayweather. And again, Canelo did not make the kind of statements right before he signed to fight Mayweather about how he has no problem dropping weight like what Bivol is making now about how he has no problem fighting at 168, that he's a small Light Heavyweight and could easily fight at 168. So lets be very clear, Bivol is saying this right now, right before the fight could be made, Bivol is essentially offering to drop down to fight Canelo at 168, similarly to how Dawson offered to drop down to 168 for Ward, and we know how that turned out for Dawson.

We can all agree that in retrospect, it was without a shadow of a doubt unwise and a huge miscalculation for Dawson to think he could drop down a weight class and still be healthy and effective against Ward. At the same time, I think we also need to understand that Dawson was a much bigger Light Heavyweight than Bivol is. Dawson wasn't making statements for years about how he's a small Light Heavyweight and how he would have no problem fighting at 168 like Bivol was. For Dawson, he was only offering to move down to 168 to fight Ward. But despite Dawson's miscalculation, I don't think it's fair to accuse Ward of being a weight bully in that situation. I don't think it's fair to accuse Ward of draining Dawson or "demanding" that Dawson move down, because again, like with Bivol is here with fighting at 168, it was clear that Dawson offered to move down to fight Ward.

It's very different for a fighter to offer to move down in weight, or say he has no problem fighting at a lower weight, than for a fighter to be coerced or manipulated by an opponent into fighting at a lower weight.

So if the fight does end of happening at 168, or even at a catchweight below 175, I don't want to hear any complaints or excuses about how Canelo or his team drained Bivol or demanded Bivol fight him on his terms. Because we didn't hear anyone blaming Ward for draining Dawson or demanding he move down now did we, despite the fact that Dawson was clearly drained and unhealthy fighting Ward at 168. That was on Dawson. You can't blame Ward for accepting Dawson's offer to move down to 168 and fight him at his weight as Bivol is clearly willing to do here.

It almost seems like Bivol would prefer to fight Canelo at 168, since he keeps talking about how he has no problem fighting at 168, that he's a small Light Heavyweight, etc. So my question to you is what do you make of that? Is this a tactical mistake by Bivol to offer to fight Canelo at 168 or is this a case where Bivol really could make 168 safely and wouldn't be drained like Dawson was?
Click to expand...

another monster of a pos by our resident tale teller LOL
Is there REALLY anyone on here going to read his cod's wallop ??

gollumsluvslave · Aug 2, 2021

It's far easier to summarize without War and Peace!

@168
Probably actually suits Bivol better as his 175 title surely would not be on the line. Canelo has everything to lose and not very much to gain (boiled Bivol down etc), Bivol simply has his 0 to lose. CAnelo surely would not be asking Bivol to put his 175 title on the line with a 168 fight?

@175
Bivol has more to lose but still a ton to gain. Canelo has a heck of a lot more to gain, especially if he does a modern day Armstrong and fights at BOTH 168 and 175 over next few years.

Based on the above, I can't see how the hell it will be @168, if Canelo is gonna risk it against Bivol or Beterbiev, you can bet damn sure their titles will be on the line.

There's also the slim possibility that Canelo tries to get the 175 trinket off Bivol by doing a 170/172 catch-weight. But I can't see that, the backlash would be enormous.

shadow111 · Aug 2, 2021

gollumsluvslave said: ↑

It's far easier to summarize without War and Peace!
Click to expand...

The "War and Peace" style opening posts were required to go through all the comparisons and scenarios needed to move the chatter from the played out burned out far out Canelo detracting arguments to looking at the situation with logic and reasoning.

In the end, I want to hear the counter arguments but without all the exaggerations and made up stuff. Your responses are not that far from my view on where the fight should be had. You even reference several things I referenced from the "War and Peace" opening posts about who has more to lose and gain.

The main thing for me is that there are a lot of unknowns here as far as how good Bivol would be after "boiling down" to make 168. But I agreed with the other poster who said he needs a longer camp to move down to 168.

gollumsluvslave said: ↑

@168
Probably actually suits Bivol better as his 175 title surely would not be on the line. Canelo has everything to lose and not very much to gain (boiled Bivol down etc), Bivol simply has his 0 to lose. CAnelo surely would not be asking Bivol to put his 175 title on the line with a 168 fight?

@175
Bivol has more to lose but still a ton to gain. Canelo has a heck of a lot more to gain, especially if he does a modern day Armstrong and fights at BOTH 168 and 175 over next few years.

Based on the above, I can't see how the hell it will be @168, if Canelo is gonna risk it against Bivol or Beterbiev, you can bet damn sure their titles will be on the line.

There's also the slim possibility that Canelo tries to get the 175 trinket off Bivol by doing a 170/172 catch-weight. But I can't see that, the backlash would be enormous.
Click to expand...

Good points about the Titles. Probably the fairest compromise to make the fight happen in September is a 172 catchweight in a Non-Title fight as the start of a trilogy, a second fight at 168 and a third fight at 175. The interesting thing about them fighting at 168 while Champs in different weight classes is that Bivol's Title at LHW and Canelo's Titles at SMW could both be on the line in the same fight.

Log in or Sign up

Canelo Bivol at 168 or 175?

drenlou Tres Delinquentes Full Member

C.J. Boxings Living Legend revered & respected by all Full Member

gollumsluvslave Well-Known Member Full Member

shadow111 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

Log in or Sign up

Forums

Canelo Bivol at 168 or 175?

drenlou Tres Delinquentes Full Member

C.J. Boxings Living Legend revered & respected by all Full Member

gollumsluvslave Well-Known Member Full Member

shadow111 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member