you mean complain about how much stash of yay he is going to get that night so he can get all yipped out then make a fool out of himself on national TV?
I beg to differ on the landing more cleaning and effectively...... ......I think alot of Chavez' waist play, parrying, and moving with the shots, in both Taylor and Whitaker bouts is neglected by alot of viewers....... Watch the Taylor fight, Chavez routinely is in tune with letting Taylor get his three and 4 shot flurries off, only to have Chavez ride and parry the shots and then counter with thudding, heavy right hand shots, caroming off of poor Taylor's dome......You want to talk about effectiveness, Chavez' shots were the epitome of effectiveness vs Taylor. This type of scenario was constant throughout much of the fight.......Chavez only gets partial credit for this by most because it was'nt until the last few rounds where Taylor visibly became sluggish and slowed down his workrate. Meldrick Taylor during those last few rounds, his arms seemed so heavy as he was dragging his combinations across, but God bless him, he was in it to win it!
Of course Chavez shots were monstrously heavy, you don't destroy a man with light punches, but, as you said yourself, most of those punches were in the last rounds and Taylor was already en route to a good decision, I had it also 7-4 at the time of the stoppage. In the end, a man lost the biggest fight of his career along with his health. But Chavez is incredible. Taking all those shots and still in good shape...
I did'nt say that most of Chavez' punches were in the last rounds......I said that Taylor visibly became more sluggish from the effects of Chavez' constant heavy shots throughout the fight, and that includes early and mid-rounds. Those straight rights and chops to the body from Chavez, were constant, and we saw the effects of it late in the fight.
I'm with you on this fight, Taylor was winning, and was ahead by a number of rounds, but Chavez' efforts throughout the fight should not be forgotten. The commentators glossed over it largely but he was landing between Taylor's flurries. Taylor would throw, land 2, 3 or even 4 punches, then Chavez would land 1 hard punch to which the commentators would ignore. That accumlative damage won him the fight in the end.
The Rosario fight was indeed a prime Chavez...... Chavez by then was probably on the downward arc of his prime, but the way he anhillated Hector Camacho was something to behold. Certainly Camacho was'nt prime and that had something to do with it.....but I think more to do with it was the fact that Mexicans hated Camacho with a passion, and that included Chavez himself.....and so Chavez was hyper motivated. I dont believe I ever saw a more motivated Chavez than against Camacho. Chavez repeated on more than one occasion before the Camacho fight, that there was absolutely no way he was going to lose. "I will not return to Mexico if I lose against Camacho!" Honestly I think he meant it. I thought is was a fantastic performance against Camacho. I dont think you could pick a 10 or 15 second sequence in any of the rounds that Camacho won. To put a more recent example of the dominance exhibited by Chavez on that night, it was like watching Calzaghe's destruction of Jeff Lacy. Complete and total dominance in every phase of the game. To see Felix Trinidad 2 years later, and then Delahoya 5 years later against Camacho, not even come close to dominating not only an older but a heavier Camacho in the fashion that Chavez had done......it really makes that Chavez performance for me even more impressive. Seeing Chavez dominate Rocky Lockridge early, and then hurting his hand and outboxing Lockridge with basically one hand, is also an impressive achievement to me by Chavez. This was back in 1986 in Chavez' early title reign at 130 lbs before he became a household name. I saw that Lockridge fight on ABC wide world of sports, I made a mental note that afternoon after watching Chavez beat Lockridge, to keep an eye on him, because he had all the makeup to become a special fighter. .....believe me guys, I'm not just saying this in hindsight, I had already seen Chavez knockout Roger Mayweather in 2 rounds and I was really impressed by Chavez that afternoon against Lockridge that I really did make a mental note to myself that I was very well watching greatness at work! .....and oh yeah, the way Chavez stuck to the gameplan and disected and wore down Meldrick Taylor limb by limb......yeah, I'd say thats pretty impressive also!
Yeah but you have to say that Chavez was lucky with the stoppage. He wold have lost the fight by SD if the fight went to the limit.
I thought with the knockdown in the last round, Chavez deserved to have his hand raised in a close fight...... ....but regardless, Taylor was'nt the same fighter coming out of that fight with Chavez, not even close. A rematch right away would have seen Chavez totally dominate him.
At least we agree that the fight was not a shut out decision for Chavez :good An immediate rematch would have been worse than the rematch they had 2 years later.
A zombie in a trance? That's bull**** and you know it. Taylor looked directly to his corner. That might have been a misguided move, but he definitely wasn't zombified with his eyes reeling or anything of the sort. Personally I would have given Taylor more of a chance to answer. I definitely would have waited for a response to the second question at least before waiving it off. What I'd like to know is why Pugilato and Ring Record Books had Chavez down as being DQ'ed for so long. And I'd also like to know the role his manager Ramon Felix played in having the DQ overturned. Seems more than a litle suspect to me when your own manager is on the commission that overturns the decision. Sounds kinda biased doesn't it? The controversy lies in the way that the draw came about. There wasn't due process. More on this below. Just about everyone that discusses this fight has Chavez behind at the time of the stoppage, even taking the point deduction into account. It's quite obvious that Chavez thought with the aid of a point, this was as good as the fight was going to get for him (in terms of winning it), and so he pulled the pin. He may have thought he was ahead, but the objective viewer knows that belief was delusional. The actual headclash that caused the cut was accidental, but if you watch the preceeding rounds you can see Chavez repeatedly coming in with the head trying to foul. Chavez was blatantly trying to headbut Frankie, but Frankie had no ***** in him and continued to fight Chavez on his own terms. I thought it very ironic when Chavez came out with the cut. Houston and Abrams both independently saw the master scoresheet with Chuck Hassett's scorecard of 115-115 on it. Counting round by round though, Hassett's tally came to 6-5-1 for Gonzalez, which should have given Gonzalez the split decision win with a 115-114 score. But they announced the score as 115-115. Abrams claims he also saw Hassett's individual scoresheet, and the same thing was evident there: 6-5-1 and it was scored 115-115 instead of what it should have been 115-114 Gonzalez. Round 6 was the crucial round. Hasset had it scored 10-9 on his own scoresheet for Gonzalez, and it was put down likewise on the master scoresheet. 3 days later Sulaiman releases a statement saying Lamozon (the guy collating the master scoresheet) had made a mistake on the master scoresheet, scoring round 6 10-9 for Gonzalez instead of 10-10, which it was claimed was what Hassett had in round 6 on his round by round score sheet (contradicting Abrams who said he saw the same score as was on the master scoresheet, a 10-9 for Gonzalez). Hassett was called on the night after the fight and merely said he could not remember how he scored round 6. Now I don't know about you, but when it comes to believing Sulaiman or Abrams, I know who I'm putting my money on.
I'm sorry, but I really do find it a disgrace of anyone of the opinion after seeing Steele give Taylor a count, to conclude that Taylor should have been allowed to continue. There is really no ratianal basis to come up with that conclusion. A good ref not only gives a count, he examines the condition of the hurt fighter in the process as he makes that count. I've seen fighters countless number of times fighters during the time the ref is giving them a count, raise their hand and signal both gesturely and verbally to the ref, I'm OK. Taylor did none of that, he was just standing their like a statued zombie. .....and you're correct, Taylor did look toward his own corner where Lou Duva was creating a ruckus, no doubt trying to distract Richard Steele into stopping the count and reprimand him.......undoubtedly one of the oldest tricks in the book to create and buy time for his injured fighter. Did you see how slow a move Taylor made with his head to turn and look at Lou????? ......this should tell us all of the condition Taylor was in that he'd turn his head in the midst of a verbal loud count by Richard Steele, in which he was putting up the number of fingers before Taylors eyes to signal where in the count he was at...... For Taylor to react to Duva's ruckus instead of Steeles count, is a prime example that the fight should have been stopped. I just cant see it any other way, one, Meldrick Taylor made no gesture to the ref that he could and wanted to continue, (A ref does'nt even have to ask for a fighter to gesture I want to continue), and more importantly, Meldrick Taylor was in terrible shape, I mean absolutely attrocious shape. I thought Richard Steele explained it as calmly and intelligently as can be afterward.....both in the ring, and on HBO's legendary nights. Steele saw the punishment up close. "Througout the fight, Chavez was landing shots to break bones!" A quote from Richard Steele...... .....but maybe you're right Scientist, maybe Steele should have disregarded the up close inhumane punishment he saw Chavez bestow upon Taylor, and disregard the fact altogether that Taylor did'nt make a single gesture signal wise or verbal wise of his wishes to want to continue. sweet_scientist-"I would not have stopped the fight!" To know that Taylor spent several days in the hospital afterward..... .....and I do believe a doctor was quoted as saying that Taylor's many injuries that night, was the worst overall condition he'd seen a fighter come to the hospital for treatment for. A sad statement indeed.:-( How long did those record books have Chavez down with the loss? Up to what year did the Ring have Chavez down with a loss? Thats an interesting question, because certainly before Chavez' title reigns, Don King or Chavez' camp were not thinking, "we've got to overturn that DQ loss as we've got to hype him up as an undefeated fighter on his way to 100-0! I dont think anybody associated with Chavez was thinking that way anytime before the Meldrick Taylor fight.....so I really dont see what the big deal you're trying picture of Chavez getting preferential treatment because of his status, that they had to go overturn a DQ loss over for. Usually those that have some hate or anger toward Chavez are the ones that bring the Randall rematch into question......and so you know, naturally they're going to side with the opinion that Chavez should have been behind on the scorecards. I think that alot of people who saw the fight would feel that it was a dead heat, but the anger play comes into it by the fact that it was inconclusive. Certainly even a big Chavez fan as myself would'nt brag about the victory in that Randall rematch. Certainly, the way the outcome came about,deserved a third fight, I'm not disputing that, but I dont feel that Randall was robbed. It was just one of those unfortunate circumstances that sometimes happens in boxing. DId you see what happened last night with Toney and Rahman??? The way Rahman felt is the way I felt about those who think Chavez pulled a quit job and walked out on Randall....... Rahman was quoted yesterday, "I had my hands full fighting Toney being able to see with two good eyes, but all of a sudden I'm starting to get hit with right hands I'm not seeing coming".....and so Rahman lets the ref know and the doctor know that he cant see out of the injured eye. Do you actually believe Rahman was scared to fight Toney? I believe its the fact that Rahman rationalized with himself, "I'm going to lose these next rounds if blood continues to pour, and if that happens, its going to go to the scorecards and I'm going to be the loser. Personally, I think Rahman was within his rights to tell the ref and doctor the truth, "I cant see out of my eye." The Chavez-Randall incident is a little different in that the butt was a more concussive type of violent clash that caused an even bigger and deeper gash. As I explained with the Rahman fight, it may have had something to do with the matter. I think however that Chavez was rattled and hurt by that clash of heads. Dont undermine that fact that it was a violent clash of heads Scientist. Sometimes fighters just scrape heads and a cut opens. This one was really a hard violent one.....so dont go overboard on your depiction to try to discredit Chavez here. Lets have some honest debate here is all I'm saying. .....and really, delusional? Chavez was'nt even in the fight heh?:rofl Please!:nut Chavez trying to get inside Randall's reach, bobbing and weaving trying to get in Randall's Chest area to unleach body shots.....thats trying to butt Randall? How do you suggest Chavez had gone about getting inside Randall's reach, come foward and stand his head up tall for Randall to target?:rofl :rofl :rofl Honesty on the matter is all I'm looking for scientist, I dont believe for one second you're being honest with yourself on the matter of Chavez purposely trying to butt Randall. What we do know is that Randalll lead with his head and butted Chavez, not the other way around!:deal
Chavez trying to get inside Randall's reach, bobbing and weaving trying to get in Randall's Chest area to unleach body shots.....thats trying to butt Randall? How do you suggest Chavez had gone about getting inside Randall's reach, come foward and stand his head up tall for Randall to target?:rofl :rofl :rofl Honesty on the matter is all I'm looking for scientist, I dont believe for one second you're being honest with yourself on the matter of Chavez purposely trying to butt Randall. What we do know is that Randalll lead with his head and butted Chavez, not the other way around!:deal Houston and Abrams both independently saw the master scoresheet with Chuck Hassett's scorecard of 115-115 on it. Counting round by round though, Hassett's tally came to 6-5-1 for Gonzalez, which should have given Gonzalez the split decision win with a 115-114 score. But they announced the score as 115-115. Abrams claims he also saw Hassett's individual scoresheet, and the same thing was evident there: 6-5-1 and it was scored 115-115 instead of what it should have been 115-114 Gonzalez. Round 6 was the crucial round. Hasset had it scored 10-9 on his own scoresheet for Gonzalez, and it was put down likewise on the master scoresheet. 3 days later Sulaiman releases a statement saying Lamozon (the guy collating the master scoresheet) had made a mistake on the master scoresheet, scoring round 6 10-9 for Gonzalez instead of 10-10, which it was claimed was what Hassett had in round 6 on his round by round score sheet (contradicting Abrams who said he saw the same score as was on the master scoresheet, a 10-9 for Gonzalez). Hassett was called on the night after the fight and merely said he could not remember how he scored round 6. Now I don't know about you, but when it comes to believing Sulaiman or Abrams, I know who I'm putting my money on.[/quote] Like I said Scientist, you mentioning it is the first I hear of this. During that time span, I regularly read the spanish speaking paper LA OPINION, who has boxing coverage in it almost everyday. They covered the Chavez-Gonzalez fight thoroughly, and they never mentioned such incident. The masterscore sheet where the final results are tallied are I believe for public display. I think anyone from the media can ask to look at them. ....but who the hell are these journalist who write about this, and what made them so special that they had access to view a judges round by round scorecard......Did Abrams explain why and how he was prevy to these scorecards????? and if something was not on the up and up, why the hell would they even show these journalist these individual scorecards???? What are these individuals relationship with Jose Sulaiman? There are certain individuals who have it in for others. They might be enemies for all we know! ....in any regards, could it have happened like Abrams described??? Sure, I dont hold anybody in boxing to any standard. Sulaiman is certainly more than capable of changing the scores if he wished......it probably goes on more than we imagine....... But I seriously doubt that it happened the way Abrams described Scientist......lets get real, we both know that nobody had to go to the lenghths described in that article if the fix was in. The governing bodies taking those judges aside and establishing that Chavez is to get the benefit of the doubt in any of the close rounds would have been enough. As it stands, more spanish speaking papers in the US and Mexico, thought Chavez did enough to beat Gonzalez. You would think that Chavez fighting in Mexico would get the benefit by a judge in a close round......so go figure, most of the spanish speaking media in the US and Mexico score for Chavez, but the actual judges have it a draw.
Tim was 2 minutes and 58 seconds. Even though Taylor was already destroyed at some point, those 2 seconds would have done nothing worse to him except getting the W and put an end to Julio's perfect record (which was very important to him back then). Now, I have seen many times referee letting fights resume when the fighter was really really hurt (example: Tito/Fernando) when wasn't responding to the ref as well...