Do you consider Ray Leonard among the 20 Greatest fighters of all-time ?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Unforgiven, Jul 17, 2008.


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  1. Ezzard

    Ezzard Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Guys who have to be above him...

    Langford
    Louis
    Ali
    Charles
    Moore
    Fitzsimmons
    Greb
    Monzon
    Robinson
    Griffith
    Duran
    Canzoneri
    Ross
    Gans
    Benny Leonard
    Pep
    Armstrong

    After that it's about personal perception.
     
    Ezzard, Jul 17, 2008
    Ezzard, Jul 17, 2008
    #31
  2. Sweet Pea

    Sweet Pea Obsessed with Boxing banned

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    You'd choose Burley over Leonard? Interesting, I think Burley would fight a fight that plays into Leonard's hands, much the way Benitez did. Unlike Hagler, Hearns, and Duran where he had to switch his style up (big bonus points for Leonard for showing this ability against such high level competition), Leonard got to fight his fight against a guy like Benitez, and turned in his most impressive performance.

    Do you think Burley would imply a different style?
     
    Sweet Pea, Jul 17, 2008
    Sweet Pea, Jul 17, 2008
    #32
  3. My dinner with Conteh

    My dinner with Conteh Tending Bepi Ros' grave again Full Member

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    Does he? :huh
     
    My dinner with Conteh, Jul 17, 2008
    My dinner with Conteh, Jul 17, 2008
    #33
  4. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    You deleted the word "arguably" from that sentence you little ****!

    Back to the lounge with you.
     
    McGrain, Jul 17, 2008
    McGrain, Jul 17, 2008
    #34
  5. My dinner with Conteh

    My dinner with Conteh Tending Bepi Ros' grave again Full Member

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    :lol: :p
     
    My dinner with Conteh, Jul 17, 2008
    My dinner with Conteh, Jul 17, 2008
    #35
  6. Addie

    Addie Myung Woo Yuh! Full Member

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    I disagree.

    Longevity is a telling stat and it will usually seperate great fighters from good fighters, but Leonard is the exception. It shouldn't be understated just how impressive early wins in his career against all-time greats Benitez and Hearns was. Neither fighter had previously been defeated or stopped, and Leonard, not even know as a puncher, was stopping his hardest opposition. The loss to Duran just works in his favour, it shown his ability to adapt in their second bout where for the most part it wasn't even competitive. The hagler fight solidifed his position amongst the greatest fighters of all time. He was rusty, past his best, outside of his natural weight, and he beat one of the greatest middleweights ever....at middleweight. Regardless of whether you think he won the fight, it was an accomplishment to see that 12th round.

    I'm of the opinion that the greatest era in Boxing was the 80s, and Leonard defeated 4 of the best of that era. He is top 10 for me if based purely on technical ability, overcoming adversity, and his top 4 wins. :good
     
    Addie, Jul 17, 2008
    Addie, Jul 17, 2008
    #36
  7. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Different to what? I think Burley would fight very very carefully against Leonard unless he was losing. If he was losing Leonard, who bangs at welter, but probably not hard enough to upset Charley, would close with him. But I wouldn't expect him to lose. He's got the accuracy, speed and the reach. Think Hearns, but if Leonard tries to close he'll get hammered.
     
    McGrain, Jul 17, 2008
    McGrain, Jul 17, 2008
    #37
  8. TIGEREDGE

    TIGEREDGE Boxing Addict Full Member

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    top 20 is ok. but i have a problem with him being in the top 10 ahead of greats with longer careers. his prime was too short and that comeback he made in the late 80's was a JOKE.

    I would have to rank Hearns, Hagler and Duran ahead of him even though I consider him to be the most talented. He beat a prime Hearns once and there are many doubts about that victory. he beat a prime benitez who was a ATG (great win) but Hagler was well past it when leonard fought him and he never beat a Duran anywhere near close to his best. that no mas was a joke. he rematched duran at the right time (ray has even said that himself)

    PLEASE DON'T BRING UP THE JOKE ABOUT HIM BEING A 5 WEIGHT WORLD CHAMPION. THATS A ****ING SICK JOKE. how can a boxer be light heavyweight champion when you haven't even fought at the weight

    if he'd of beat one of his great adversaries a couple of times while in there prime, his case for a top 10 place would be really strengthened.
     
    TIGEREDGE, Jul 17, 2008
    TIGEREDGE, Jul 17, 2008
    #38
  9. Sweet Pea

    Sweet Pea Obsessed with Boxing banned

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    Different to Benitez.

    By saying he would fight a very careful fight I assume you'd have him fighting a style similar to that, which is what Leonard excelled against, so I don't see Burley doing as well as you.

    As far as Hearns, I don't get it. Leonard had the height and reach advantage to my knowledge, and from what I've seen, didn't have the speed, at least not in combination, that Leonard did.
     
    Sweet Pea, Jul 17, 2008
    Sweet Pea, Jul 17, 2008
    #39
  10. redrooster

    redrooster Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I can do that without a problem.
     
    redrooster, Jul 17, 2008
    redrooster, Jul 17, 2008
    #40
  11. Addie

    Addie Myung Woo Yuh! Full Member

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    I'm sure I speak for everyone here when I say I cannot wait for this list :) :lol:
     
    Addie, Jul 17, 2008
    Addie, Jul 17, 2008
    #41
  12. redrooster

    redrooster Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Yes but he had help from the judges in two of them. And as ugly as it was I can't discount the Norris fight because it upsets me to think about it. After all, he was the 3-1 fave. Top 100 somewhere but we dont know for sure where
     
    redrooster, Jul 17, 2008
    redrooster, Jul 17, 2008
    #42
  13. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Lenoard had the shorter reach. Burley is listed as 75 or 76 depending upon who you trust. Leonard is listed as 74 on boxrec. That's not a huge difference, but Burley has the accuracy.

    As for speed? Arguable. Certainly those who saw both compared Burley to Jones for speed. Minotauro is my source for that though, hopefully he will pop in.

    As I said, Burley would box carefully against Leonard, and I would expect that to work given his superior reach, accurate punching and speed. But if it didn't, he would close. Burley's best showing against Holman Williams followed such a pattern with Burley dropping Williams 3 times in the fight before throwing his shoulder and dropping a decision.
     
    McGrain, Jul 17, 2008
    McGrain, Jul 17, 2008
    #43
  14. Addie

    Addie Myung Woo Yuh! Full Member

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    :rofl :rofl

    Come on, let's see your list Rooster.
     
    Addie, Jul 17, 2008
    Addie, Jul 17, 2008
    #44
  15. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    First off, you can see the arguments for Joe Louis above Ray Leonard so I have no motive to argue that case further.
    You said I should name 20. Louis features in my sample 20. I personally have no reservations about Joe Louis above Ray Leonard.

    On Monzon, the same dominance argument applies. You can say Leonard has a better middleweight win than Monzon, maybe so, (but it's also a disputed win over a fading star, and that's how it'd be described if something similar to it featured among Monzon's resume)
    A flipside of course is that Leonard lost to smaller Duran at his "OWN weight".

    Charley Burley was avoided, forced to fight bigger men almsot his entire career, multiple times, fighters in their primes. Leonard's moving up the weights for one or two fights doesn't impress as much. Again, it's a higher level of activity (against very good opposition) that puts Burley up there.

    Kid Chocolate was a supreme talent. If indeed the Battalino and Canzoneri decisions were bad (as I've been led to believe), then he was robbed out of holding the featherweight, junior-lightweight and lightweight and junior-welter titles simultaneously at his peak ! I consider Canzoneri a pound-for-pound great, as you can see, and I have no hesitation in putting Chocolate among the pound-for-pound greats. He was a master.
     
    Unforgiven, Jul 17, 2008
    Unforgiven, Jul 17, 2008
    #45
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