Do you consider Ray Leonard among the 20 Greatest fighters of all-time ?

Remember, I am more knowledgable of the accomplishments of past fighters than many here (though I am decades past my prime) so you may see names which you are not accustomed to seeing.

Just taking a sample from each decade you could do it without a problem. I don't like to thrown names around thats not my style but here are a couple

Johnson, Fitzsimmons, Dempsey, McGovern, Wilde, Villa, Jeffries, Atell, Gans, Ketchel, the great B.L, Loughran, Walker, Greb, Tunney, Flowers, Mclarnin, Louis, Basilio, Cerdan, Moore, Charles, Marciano, Robinson, Jofre, D. Tiger, Ali, Arguello, Monzon, Napoles, Duran, M. Spinks, Hagler, Camacho, Norris, Jones, Bowe

That's at least 35 off the top of my head but I know I missed a few people

 

Says the guy who didn't include Henry Armstrong in the top 25 list he posted a while back.

 

You rate Riddick Bowe over Ray Leonard?

 

Yes I do. His winning performances over Holyfield proved his greatness besides all his other great wins. Bowe changed me from a skeptic to believer and a huge fan.

 

If you rate Bowe over Leonard then you lose credibility. He had an incredibly short career also, and didn't beat the fighters that Ray did. I should have known.

 

Camacho and Norris atsch

 

I dont really see what you're saying about the Louis/Leonard debate.
Louis is just one name of the 20. Personally I rate Louis above Leonard, for which you admit there is a case. So, that shouldn't be a problem.

I dont accept that "wins over other all-time greats" are all that should matter. Seeing off the challenges of a good field of competitors is a lot of what being a great champion is about, certainly in the days when there was one champ. Or clearing up contenders, fighting the top guys multiple times, re-matching the men who gave close fights etc.

Sometimes very good contenders are prevented from becoming "greats" because they came up against a better one who bar their path to greatness. So I dont put as much stock in that than you suggest we should. For example, Hagler's win over Thomas Hearns was a classic display, but I dont necessarily believe his "ATG" tag actually made him a "tougher test" to pass than some of the other tough men at middleweight Hagler fought his entire career.

That's not to say that I dont believe in the significance of Leonard's wins over ATG, or his greatness. I do believe. I just think the gaps and layoffs, short title reigns etc., compromise the overall picture and that he wouldn't feature in my top 20.

On reflection, Charley Burley is the only name on my list I'd re-consider.

 

I would also add DLH, P.W., Bob Foster, Armstrong, Ross, Canzonari, Burley, Victor Galindez, Saad Muhammad, Sal Sanchez. That's another ten.

See how easy it was?

This doesn't look good for Leonard.

 

I don't see how you can rate Bowe on a P4P list.

That's a lot of ****in' pounds.

 

Yes,and p4p head to head top ten. Even robinson doesnt have the four great wins that leonard has....
Some atg fighters have never defeated a fellow atg,and some have defeated maybe one,ray beat four and all of them were in very good shape when he beat them. (ie,not shot,40 pounds overweight or 300 years old.)

 

Galendez, Saad Muhammad pound for pound over Sugar Ray Leonard ? Am I catching this right or missing something ? It's got to be a joke, right ? :yikes

 

Saad and Vic were two of my heroes. He was even nicknamed miracle matthew for the way he pulled them out. I've never seen Ray in the kind of trouble Matt had been in then come back to win. And he did this over and over.

Galindez of course was a great fighter. Even with his face sliced up in the Rossman fight he would never say die whereas most other fighters would have just given up. I'm not saying Leonard would have but I don't think Ray would have lasted as long under the same circumstances. Up until the end, Vic was giving as good as he got! And you know what happened in the rematch. :good

Two good examples of Matt's courage and ability to come back to win were the rematches with Lopez and Johnson. I could scarcely believe what I was seeing, like something out of a Hollywood movie. Yet they did happen.

leonard had never really been in trouble the way matt was. When he ran into problems he ususally lost like in the Duran fight when Roberto tagged his chin, that was it for him and let Roberto dictate.

Same with Norris. The fight was up for grabs when round two was about to end when Terry caught him with a blinding left then followed up the next round with the uppercut. Norris owned him from that point on.

In short, Ray dint do well in tough fights wheras Matt and Vic thrived on them and were able to make numerous deefenses.

 

What re you talking about? Robinson owns wins over everyone that was champion from two decades. Robbie could have beat a worn out slug like Hagler any day of the week!

Robbie whipped Armstrong. He whipped Zivic. He whipped Bell, Gavilan, lamotta five times. And that's just for starters. With Leonard you'd be lucky if he even gave one rematch and if he did, it would be at the end of the decade.