excellent analysis, thanks. I think the best version of Jeffries is the one against Munroe, the last fight before the first retirement. According to all witnesses, Jeffries had improved a lot even technically by that date. Corbett gave Jeffries a lot of trouble in the first match, even though he had a small lead before the knockout. Corbett was smaller than Holmes, but he was mobile, he moved from the beginning to the end of a fight always at the same speed, he had good footwork, generally good technique. Holmes struggled a little against "hard" boxers, such as Cooney and Cobb. Jeffries was certainly better.
Holmes uppercuts take the fight out of big Jeff. Holmes TKO in about 12. Too much punishment from a big fast strong HW with incredible skill and ring generalship. Jeff never gets past the jab
The 1905 rules part makes this fight nearly impossible to call. We're in Jim's home here. Larry would definitely need to spend a lot of time first in that era, training and having a few fights, before fighting Jim Jeffries in 1905. Holmes needs to move there in about 1902 and experience the conditions so his training and style of fighting can be altered to fit the Jeffries era. If he did that first, I would then lean toward Larry in this.
For those picking Holmes, how far does this faith in modern boxers to win against former champions in different sports go? Does Holmes defeat Masahiko Kimura in a judo match? Dennis Alexio (or Cobb...) in kickboxing? Does Holmes out-wrestle Ernest Roeber? How are his chances in sumo against Akebono Taro? I'm exaggerating for effect here. But I hope you see my point.
How does wearing smaller gloves prevent Holmes from using his feet? And there are plenty of MMA guys who can pop jabs out with small gloves.
It doesn't. But it changes defense somewhat, for starters. Also, when combined with grappling, you seem to see less middle-range exchanging of combinations. The basic issue is that you're taking away some of the tools that Holmes spent his career perfecting for his era's type of fights. Jeffries, by contrast, is not forced to adapt his style to something he didn't train for. (Except in the sense that his opponent has a very different style than he's accustomed to.)
I will start by saying that Jeffries is a much more fluid concept than Holmes. When we talk about Holmes, we are all talking about the same fighter. We know exactly what he was. There are a number of interpretations of what Jeffries was, that are all plausible, but which give you somewhat different fighters. Given that my Jeffries is a bit better than some of the other Jeffries out there, I think that the rules stipulated, tip the balance of probability in his favor. This fight is basically going to turn on who get's the stoppage, and Jeffries style and game plan is better suited to that. Just being familiar with the gloves, might be a significant advantage.
I don't think Holmes would be trying to exchange or throw long combinations to begin with given that it wasn't his primary means of offense in his own era. Holmes usually threw 1-2 punches unless his opponent was hurt. He respected the big punchers and was much more cagey and took less risks. I did acknowledge Holmes would have to adjust and Jeff would already be used to his own era. I think it's only fair to let Holmes get a few tune ups and adjust his style rather than slapping him awake, putting horse hair gloves on his hands, and pushing him into the arena. Holmes was always more of a thinking fighter and I'm confident he could make his style work rather than becoming another flat footed plodding wrestler.
He may well adapt, which is once again why cross era comparisons are much more complicated than people think. At least if we compare Ali and Holmes, we are talking about the same sport. A hypothetical Holmes who's had fights against early 20th century guys is somebody we have absolutely no footage of.
I think it comes from his size and from Johnson fight. He didn't seem to be as clinch oriented against Ruhlin or Sharkey. I didn't know that Jeffries used right hand to the body as much. I always thought about him more like a left hook dominant fighter. Do you have any notes about his jab or straight right?
Then this is a bit of a strange and rather fruitless discussion. We are already speculating to begin with wondering how Holmes would look with smaller gloves and longer rounds. Jefferies himself is like 70% speculation since there is so little footage and we are mostly relying on written accounts. Then we are speculating even further by trying to figure out how their styles would clash with a completely different Holmes who is fighting under differerent rules. Inception (speculeception if you will). All I was saying is that there is precedence in the MMA for mobile guys who use whip like jabs even with smaller gloves so it's not like Holmes would be forced to become a plodding stiff puncher. His style would need some adjustments but you have guys like Corbett who use a more mobile and elusive style in Jeff's own era.
Holmes has no chance here. NONE. This is like throwing a boxer in an MMA fight he don't even have a puncher's chance of winning as Jeffries had an iron chin.
Thread. Just about everyone else in this thread is being wilfully ignorant. Holmes' jab would be useless in a fight like this. Holmes style of fighting wasn't mid century magic it developed as a result of drastic equipment and rule changes. You bring Jeffries into the 80s his whole grappling game is gone, he's just a big strong tough dude.... Holmes would clown him. You guys in this thread picking Easton Assassin, get your crap together.
