James Jeffries vs Larry Holmes (1905)

Yes, I agree. It's speculaception.

But sure, let's speculacept a bit.

Yes, but Jeffries wouldn't necessarily be a plodder either, just because he was good at wrestling.

Moreover, as long as we're speculacepting, Jeffries would be given the same opportunities Holmes gets. Jeffries, too, could fight several matches against modern boxers, train with modern boxing coaches, spar with modern fighters, make connections with modern wrestlers, martial artists, and supplement peddlers, and so on. It quickly becomes very complicated.

 

The accounts seem to indicate he was not particularly fast of foot. An old Corbett practically boxed circles around him before he started to wilt under the pressure.

There is nothing from what I've read that suggests he had quick feet and often bulldozed his opponents. Old timers always used adjectives focusing on his brutish strength and insane durability.

This is all true, but the thread is about Holmes being dropped in the Jeff era.

Hypothetically, if Jeff did the opposite he might be similar to Povetkin. They're similar in height and weight, both have powerful left hooks and uppercuts despite being orthodox. Throw in some Chuvalo toughness and body punching and sprinkle in Derick Chisora inside fighting and that would probably be close to a modern day Jefferies.

I think the furthest he'd get is maybe winning 1-2 belts (probably not undisputed). Or if he did become champ, wouldn't be able to keep it very long. Modern HW boxing doesn't particularly care if you have high stamina and a granite if you don't have a lot of height/reach. An athletic opponent could simply box and outmaneuver you and a tall powerhouse like Wilder/Joshua might just outslug you from a distance and make life hell.

Jeff would still be limited imo. Maybe in the 50's-60's he could pull something off (until Ali shows up). He might have some success in the 80's too with so many underachievers.

 

My point was more that if Holmes (teleported to 1905) gets the benefits of multiple period fights, being allowed to keep his own trainers, and not being treated like a black man in Jim Crow America, then presumably Jeffries can make contact with boxers from the 1980s world that Holmes left behind. If we are making a fair fight here, Jeffries should be allowed to train against 1980s boxers to prep for his 1905 fight against Holmes. Otherwise, the style of boxing prevalent in the 1980s will come as a total and unfair surprise to Jeffries.

 

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He looks pretty fleet footed here. As others have said, he is tricky to interpret

 

He doesn't really move that way for Ruhlin, but we also can't tell how fast he's moving in the Ruhlin film. He certainly seems to he trying to blitz and close the distance quickly with his hook in the latter film.

 

He looks pretty fast on his feet in the clip Reznik restored. But you have to consider that that is basically an AI's interpretation of Jeffries

 

That's a myth, Corbett did fairly well before late, but he didn't dominate Jeffries. Jeffries won his share of rounds before 20th as well.

 

Holmes chances being "NONE" - no.
Holmes jab being "useless" - no.

A great jab is handy in any era. Just because nobody could utilize it doesn't mean it wouldn't be a big weapon. Imagine the damage Holmes jab and slicing right hand would be doing with these gloves. Add Holmes speedy footwork to the jab and right hand and we are talking serious facial damage. Or perhaps they couldn't be cut in the old days.

Holmes would hardly be silly enough or slow enough to jab into a lowered head and his right uppercut is certainly handy as is his lateral movement.

The grappling aspect is overstated. Holmes would slice him up IMO

 

no a great jab doesnt translate to any era when jab defense in jeffries era is vastly superior(different) than holmes era . You didnt have guys walk forward with high guards and leaving gaps in the middle of the guard . he would duck and parry it would be very very difficult for holmes to land that jab and holmes uppercut could land on a crouching fighter that LEANED FORWARD ala frazier but jeffries leaned to the side, and infighting skills are what make these matches lopsided.

 

How would Larry handle the 1905 gloves made for grappling far more than todays gloves? If Larry can't keep some distance this goes badly

 

Due to the rules and equipment of the era, a great jab as Holmes employed it was not handy in Jeffries time...nor even Jack Johnson's after. Strong grappling skills seems to be the single most important attribute to heavyweight fighters of this era.

We really don't see a move away from that until the 1920s, the start of the modern era....which didn't happen because fighters just decided to start jabbing and moving more but because new advancements in equipment made grappling less ideal. We see a further move towards movement and volume punching as handwrap and glove advancement further reduced the likelihood of hand injury.

No fighter is gonna base their strategy on jabbing or any sort of regular punching when one unlucky punch could break your hand or even repeated use could destroy your knuckles. Nobody is dancing in those old slick shoes either. Grappling becomes very important, it was simply a different sport then...in a real way, not in a 50s vs 90s way.

 

I'm trying to take all this into account but when i watch what film we have i'm not seeing a guy like Holmes as having no chance and some of these nuances seem to be quite a bit overstated. Grappling in this particular title fight is actually very brief and not pivotal. There is plenty of time at long range and hands are mostly down and chins high in the air. Punches were still extremely influential in winning these fights. Lateral movement was still possible. If it was that slippery they'd be slipping/falling down more often.

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All fair points. I'll throw in one thing for the old(er) timey side:

Grappling may have been limited in Jeffries/Ruhlin, but it might have been "limited" in the same sense that Muay Thai or MMA bouts sometimes lack clinch wrestling.

In those kinds of fights, fighters *can* clinch wrestle extensively (and negate each other's wrestling), but choose not to for strategic reasons. However, if you put them up against a clinching noob who clearly doesn't understand the nuances, even the mediocre grapplers start ragdolling folks. When your opponent lacks the skill to keep you honest, you can start taking liberties.

Remember that people believed that comeback-zombie-Jeffries would be able to match Johnson in the clinch, based on their memories of prime Jeffries. Johnson was a guy who could tie people into human pretzels. (And did, in fact, tie zombie-Jeffries into one.) Prime Jeff was considered to be in that league.

I'm not saying that's what's going to happen here, or that it describes what's happening in Ruhlin/Jeffries. But it might be worth considering.

 

I think it's a stretch TBH.