How would the career of an Ali who remained Cassius Clay and ascribed to some version of mainstream 1960s American Christianity (while presumably retaining most of his religion-neutral audacity and concern for civil rights) have gone differently? I have my own thoughts on this, but was curious to hear where the forum would take it. In some ways, he might ironically have a more difficult road. If the Mob had chosen to lean on Ali, he wouldn't have had paramilitary muscle at his disposal to protect him.
I think that’s too much up in the air for more liking to make a real argument on. I think that had you given Ali Joe Louis’s manners, thoughtlessness ect he’d have had a mock draft and been fighting throughout the war under some kind of charity banner. If Ali has been kind he may not be as notorious or wealthy but he’d have so much more respect as a man, retained his prime for longer, perhaps he would have been more popular? Who knows- but let’s say we give Joe Louis Ali’s personality or Jack Johnson’s day he drops the act when he gets the belt and goes full Papa Jack we’d might have seen the HW of the world “disappear”
I think that it is better to be cautious when discussing this topic. Muhammad Ali did have the right to exercise his 3 rd Amendment rights under the U.S Constitution, but because he did not choose a typical Religious Faith, he faced backlash for it. What if someone chose your lifelong faith for you? This country is not a Communist Nation, many of us served in the U.S. Armed Forces, I am one of them, I served 6 honorable years, to preserve our rights. I do not want to dabble in racism but it appears that Ali was supposed to be Subservient or else suffer the consequences for converting to another Religious Faith? Posters adore Mike Tyson, would if he had the mannerism of Joe Louis, I read that Tyson assaulted his wife and mother in law.. All men have their flaws, but standing up for what you believe should stand for something. Ali had many flaws as a man, but he was devoted to his religion until the day he passed away. I am starting to understand your true feelings, I will leave it at that.
Devoted is a strong word. There are rules as a Muslim and he outright p1ssed on most of them just like Elijah.
I think you're misunderstanding my post. Just as you previously misunderstood my comment that Ali was durable in the 70s to mean that I somehow enjoyed watching Ali getting punched. I am not proposing that Ali be forced to convert to anything. Nor am I gloating over violating his religious liberties in a fantasy thread. Indeed, I am speculating that at least in one way -- Ali's vulnerability to the Mob -- he might have been worse off without the protection of Elijah Muhammad's group. The actual, real-world Muhammad Ali's religious decisions are obviously between him and God, and won't change because of a speculative thread. I'm asking a "what if" question, in the same way that we do all the time. ("What if Ketchel hadn't been shot?" "What if Dempsey had fought Wills?" "What if Tyson hadn't fired Rooney?") I'm asking what would have happened if Ali had not made the voluntary (I assume) choice to convert. If we are evaluating this issue by secular standards, it's not a foregone conclusion that a young Ali joined the religious movement he did. There were other religious groups he might have joined in 1960s America; it's historically plausible (again, from a secular perspective) that he doesn't get exposed to, or chooses not to convert to, the religion he did. He wasn't born into that faith.
Interesting thread. Cassius Clay (as he would have remained) may well have still pissed off the more conservative boxing fan but would still have had a huge fanbase. We'd have seen more of his prime. Sometime in the early 70s he'd have probably lost his title then regained it. Eventually retiring for good after losing it again circa 1975/76. Still the all time greatest heavyweight in this alternate timeline.
The origins of the "faith" are absurd. Elijah followed Wallace Fard Muhammad. They essentially used racial tensions to bring black people to their group. Wallace Fard believed that God created white and black people in separate labs. That's beyond ignorant! I've studied multiple religions btw. Don't take this thread TOO personal @Richard M Murrieta . I don't see an agenda here. Seems like a fair question. But anyway, I believe everything happened for a reason. This thread should actually be titled "Ali without Malcolm X's influence?" X basically recruited him to the faith. His career could've been over for good. The Nation of Islam knew this. They used their resources to get him reinstated while also using his infamous reputation (and popularity) to recruit more people of color to the faith. One of the greatest fighters ever was still very young and impressionable at the time. In conclusion, I'm afraid Ali was mainly a pawn in the Nation of Islam's game. His relationship with Malcolm seemed to be very genuine.
I can’t remember who asked but essentially they said why do you put up with the NOI? just leave. He replied that If he left they’d kill him.
Perhaps and I hope he wouldn't have been filled with so much racism and hateful talk. I also read from some books that he wanted to step up and be drafted but wasn't allowed.
The mob essentially checked out of boxing with Liston. I'm not saying it's absolutely impossible, but I am saying the NY mafia didn't "own" another fighter in the same way ever again. IN the end, you can make as much money gambling on nobody and the sums involved were becoming prohibitive and the "visibility" that came with being seen with fighters no longer desirable. Billy Fox, Ike Williams, Clarence Henry, John Saxton, Sonny Liston, nothing real after that - not in the same way. I suspect that some habitual flirting aside, "the mob" would have left Ali alone. Some stuff: that awful ****ing book never would have come out; Ali would have boxed his way through Vietnam; ali and Frazier would have become friends (As they did irl) and remain friends (as they didn't) and i suspect, never fought the third fight (can't be sure). If they did have III I suspect it wouldn't have been as horrific. Ali-Frazier II is very very interesting though...that's an interesting fight if it happens much earlier.
No I do not take your post personal, there is truth in it. But it to me seemed like what if all Hispanics believed like other races, did not refer to themselves as Mexican Americans, only Americans, only spoke English. I do not want any trouble on this subject but I think that certain subjects should be avoided. People are people, no better, no worse. Muhammad Ali must have had his reasons to join The Nation Of Islam, I will leave it at that.
