Select the toughest top 10 heavyweight contenders possible

edward morbius · Feb 7, 2014

I will do one strickly pre-steroid era-not in any particular order

Sam Langford
Harry Wills
Billy Conn
Archie Moore
Johnny Risko
Rex Layne
Elmer Ray
Tommy Loughran
Turkey Thompson
Peter Jackson

Why?

Thompson--seems to have been a dangerous puncher early who might KO anyone.

Layne & Ray--proved they could upset top men.

Langford, Wills, and Conn--might have been champs with more luck.

Why not?

Firpo--too crude and wide open

Fulton--glass jaw

Buddy Baer--just big

Lou Nova--looked impressive, but flopped against top competition except for the aging Max Baer

Mendoza · Feb 7, 2014

cross_trainer said: ↑

The trick here isn't to get the ten BEST contenders ever, necessarily, but to pick ten contenders whose strengths overlap enough to make the division impenetrable.

1) Ike Ibeabuchi

As an iron-chinned, hard-punching swarmer with 235 pounds of body mass behind him, I think Ibeabuchi could deal with a lot of the smaller champs (and weaker-chinned fighters) from before the 1940s.

2) Harry Wills

Here, I'm bowing to the assumption that the traditionalists have it right -- a special fighter will remain a special fighter in any era. Wills doesn't exactly look amazing on film, but that's fine. If I'm wrong, I've only wasted one of my ten picks. If I'm right, though, I've just picked up the last man who could have been champion without the color line. A bargain price heavyweight champion. I'll take that bet.

3) Ken Norton

A lot of heavyweight punchers could mulch him, but Kenny's going to brutalize slicksters. He'd also give me a 1/3 shot of seeing off Muhammad Ali or Larry Holmes. Especially if he catches those guys on an off night. Norton ate up boxers.

4) David Tua

I need somebody who can threaten the weaker-chinned fighters, and who could stand and slug with everybody else. Tua would do both. He's also one of the few fighters who could provide a threat to Tyson, so there's that, too.

5) Oliver McCall

The guy actually KO'd Lennox Lewis. Since Lennox would be one of the greater threats to my division, I'm putting McCall in there. And he was pretty good (and a good puncher) too, so it's not like I'm getting a bad deal. He might give young Foreman issues as well.

6) Tim Witherspoon

Provides a good balance of hitting power, size, and boxing skill. He could outbox a lot of the better punchers and superheavyweights, but still had the power to remain a threat to everybody else. An excellent fighter all around.

7) Jimmy Young

A good -- if criminally undermotivated -- fighter from an awful era. Terrible style. Boring. Limited will to win. While all of these criticisms are valid, they omit the reason Young succeeded for a while: he was incredibly frustrating to fight, and could make any bout excruciating. Assuming fair judges (which don't exist in the real world, but would exist in our hypothetical division), he could outslick a lot of good champions.

8 ) Ernie Terrell

He's here on the same theory that got Young into the game: we need a spoiler, and I think that Terrell was a better octopus than Ruiz.

9) Mike Weaver

Another good, competent boxer from the 1980s. Gave Lennox some trouble when long past his prime, and gave a prime Holmes a lot of trouble as well.

10) Corrie Sanders / Vitali Klitschko

Which one I pick will depend on whether you consider Vitali's RING title "lineal". If it's not lineal, then I'm using Vitali. If Vitali's off-limits, then I'm going with Sanders. Sanders wouldn't be a favorite to beat many fighters, but he was good at generating upsets. Hits a lot harder than most heavyweights from the past, too. He might knock out a couple fighters early.

Honorable Mention: Billy Conn

Probably a controversial choice, but he came within an ace of upsetting one of the best boxer-punchers in history. Slippery little guy, and the best of the small fighters. Plus, the larger superheavyweights might take him lightly because they're worried -- like Louis -- about looking like bullies. I'll throw him in there for variety, if nothing else.

I'll also note that I've mixed and matched the modernists' reasoning with the old-timers' reasoning. This is an added form of insurance. One of the factions is probably right.

One thing I'm missing: a big (6'4-6'6") skilled heavyweight boxer-puncher like Wlad or Lewis. There haven't been many of these. Eh, it's late and I'm not revising yet. Maybe later.
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I would have similar picks. McCall awould rate lower for me ( say 9 and 10 ) but make the cut. I would move Witherpsoon a bit higher.

I would take out Terrell, and add in Langford. I would take out Weaver and add Mercer.

Vitali was a Ring Magazine Champion. This is close enough to lineal and has the best rules to establish a new lineal champion when the chain is broken. So I'm leaving him out.

1. Ike
2. Witherpsoon
3. Tua
4. Norton
5. Sanders
6. McCall
7. Langford ( Sam rates much higher pre 1960 vs boxer types )
8. Mercer
9. McCall
10. Shavers

cross_trainer · Sep 28, 2021

StGeorge said: ↑

Really good thread this one, going to throw Tyson Fury into consideration...

Not the best boxer I admit, but his sheer size and strength in the clinch could pose alot of the smaller champions problems. He is no world beater, but as one of ten non lineal 'tests' he may well have a place.
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Neat how Fury has outgrown his status as a contender these days. Excellent pick, in an "I knew him back when he wasn't just..." sort of way.

Kamikaze · Sep 28, 2021

cross_trainer said: ↑

Neat how Fury has outgrown his status as a contender these days. Excellent pick, in an "I knew him back when he wasn't just..." sort of way.
Click to expand...

I think an underrated choice for your really good thread idea is Chris Byrd. You have Young but I think Byrd is just as proven and could gate keep a lot of lineal champions.

Gazelle Punch · Sep 28, 2021

Harry Wills
Archie Moore
Jimmy Bivins
Harold Johnson
Tim Witherspoon
Alexander Povetkin
Ernie Terrell
Tommy Loughran
Sam Langford
Jerry Quarry

I like my list but some notables left off would include Ken Norton, Eddie Machen, Zora Foley, Chris Byrd, Bonavena, Bruno, Tua. Oddly enough I didn’t want to put Langford as I’m not to fond of that era but feel it’s almost blasphemous not to. Some might say why Terrell? Because he proved it w solid wins over excellent opposition. Oh and not sure if Vitali counts or not but if so he’s on my list

Mike Cannon · Sep 28, 2021

AREA 53 said: ↑

Perhap a few alternatives..for the substitues Bench ?

Luis Angel Firpo
Zeljko Mavrovic
Gary Mason
Kitione Lave
Larry Gains
Joe Baksi
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Continued- Oscar Bonavena/ Nino Valdez/ Buddy Bear/ Wille Meehan/ Leotis Martin/ Bill Brennen/ Tony Galento. keep well.

OP_TheJawBreaker · Sep 29, 2021

In no particular order:
- Bert Cooper:
Somehow in his best days, he could literally give everyone problem.

- Bob Satterfield:
Prepare for 4 round filled with hell

- Tim Witherspoon
Technical Genius, excellent defense and a good puncher.

- Ken Norton
Underrated defense, terrific puncher, very technical.

- Cleveland Williams
Good resilience, speed and power.

- Zora Folley
Underrated right hand puncher, Good defense.

- Corrie Sanders
Good handspeed and great power and iron chinned.

- Mike Weaver
Huge heart, great chin and destructive left hook one punch power.

- Jimmy Young
Slick and Durable. If you manage to catch him, doesn't mean you can kayo him yet.

- Jerry Quarry
Also huge heart, granite chin, excellent counterpuncher and good power

Kamikaze · Sep 29, 2021

cross_trainer said: ↑

If you had to design a heavyweight division that would provide the optimal challenge for a heavyweight champion, which ten contenders from ANY POINT in history would you pick?

(You can't pick lineal champions).

To put it another way: You're trying to create a heavyweight division that would chew up and spit out most heavyweight champs. The greatest possible challenge for an all time great to clean out.
Click to expand...

My Murderers row-
1. Chris Byrd
2. Mike Weaver
3. David Tua
4. Ken Norton
5. Ike Ibeabuchi
6. Jimmy Young
7. Tim Witherspoon
8. Andrew Golota
9. Big John Tate
10. Alexander Povetkin

Can we name a HW that could go through all these guys? Throw Vitali in instead of Tate if that's on the table.

cross_trainer · Sep 29, 2021

Kamikaze said: ↑

My Murderers row-
1. Chris Byrd
2. Mike Weaver
3. David Tua
4. Ken Norton
5. Ike Ibeabuchi
6. Jimmy Young
7. Tim Witherspoon
8. Andrew Golota
9. Big John Tate
10. Alexander Povetkin

Can we name a HW that could go through all these guys? Throw Vitali in instead of Tate if that's on the table.
Click to expand...

Lennox might manage it. Prime Ali (though Tua might actually cause problems; high workrate, and Ali lacks enough power to keep him off.) Tyson, maybe. Wlad if he's lucky. Holmes...? Hm. It's a tough list indeed.

I'll have to give some thought to my own revised version.

Kamikaze · Sep 29, 2021

cross_trainer said: ↑

Lennox might manage it. Prime Ali (though Tua might actually cause problems; high workrate, and Ali lacks enough power to keep him off.) Tyson, maybe. Wlad if he's lucky. Holmes...? Hm. It's a tough list indeed.

I'll have to give some thought to my own revised version.
Click to expand...

I think Byrd, Jimmy and Ibeabuchi are enough to detour Lennox. He might get smoked by Tate or Weaver...?
I think Tyson has the best chance of the lot. I think Holmes has too many close calls with this bunch. Ali would be done in by Young, Byrd and Norton IMO weirdly I think Golota could be a handful. Wlad stands no chance IMO.

Lets say all the contenders remain prime then NO ONE has a long or happy reign. They would all do enough to soften the champ up.

cross_trainer · Sep 29, 2021

Byrd and Young I agree. Spoilers.

Corrie Sanders. If a guy has a vulnerable chin, this guy can find it.

Mercer. Ibeabuchi. Tua. Large modern powerhouses. Tua and Ibeabuchi could also swarm. Mercer could potentially beat Lewis.

Norton to chew up boxers. Witherspoon as a great, skilled boxer puncher.

Quarry???? Counterpuncher; amazingly durable. Ate up big punchers.

Wills??? (on the same theory that the traditionalists might be right, and I get a budget champion of roughly Dempsey's ability.)

...At that point, I'm up in the air. Terrell for a better Ruiz style spoiler to rough people up? McCall to keep Lewis out? Deontay Wilder for a more recent option? Lamon Brewster? Options, options

No idea why I picked Weaver a while ago, though he's not a bad pick.

EDIT: Ohhhh...I know why. I was metagaming against Lewis. The game has changed, though, and now I need to worry about Lewis, Fury, Wlad among superheavies. This actually deserves more thought....

cross_trainer · Sep 29, 2021

Yeah, I need to really sit down and think about a new version. Head to head, I have to worry about Holmes, Ali, Tyson, Lewis, Wlad, Fury, maybe Foreman...there are others, of course, but I think if I'm secure against those, I'll probably keep out the rest by default.

I might not have the margin of error to get cute with Wills anymore.

OP_TheJawBreaker · Sep 29, 2021

Norton:
Beat up slick boxers

Young:
Bring sluggers to schools

Shavers:
Bully swarmers

BitPlayerVesti · Sep 30, 2021

Harry Wills
Anthony Joshua
Chris Byrd
Tommy Loughran
Earnie Shavers
Deontay Wilder
Ike Ibeabuchi
Elmer Ray
Ken Norton
Vitali Klitschko

There's probably better lists out there, but this is the first lot I thought of.

scartissue · Sep 30, 2021

Going strictly with contenders with no titlists at all involved, I would go with (no order):

-Zora Folley
-Eddie Machen
-Oscar Bonavena
-Jerry Quarry
-Ron Lyle
-Earnie Shavers
-Jimmy Young
-Gerry Cooney
-David Tua
-Ike Ibeabuchi

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Select the toughest top 10 heavyweight contenders possible

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Select the toughest top 10 heavyweight contenders possible

edward morbius Boxing Addict Full Member

Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

Kamikaze Bye for now! banned Full Member

Gazelle Punch Boxing Addict Full Member

Mike Cannon Boxing Addict Full Member

OP_TheJawBreaker NOBODY hit like that guy! Full Member

Kamikaze Bye for now! banned Full Member

cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

Kamikaze Bye for now! banned Full Member

cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

OP_TheJawBreaker NOBODY hit like that guy! Full Member

BitPlayerVesti Boxing Drunkie Full Member

scartissue Boxing Junkie Full Member