The SRR who took the title from Jake LaMotta was Robinson at his middleweight best. In his first title defense he lost the title to Turpin and began to show vulnerabilities as a middleweight. Throughout the fifties he would win the middleweight title five times, challenge for the lightheavy title, and retire for a couple years in between. Although Monzon was a more consistent titleholder, the thread asks regarding the Robinson of Feb. 14, 1951. A tough call, but that Robinson was at the peak of his powers and skill, and focused. I see this fight going the limit in a classic, with Robinson winning a close decision, maybe a split decision. A great fight between two great champions.
SRR was 5' 11" but as box rec says "often listed at 6' early in his career". Sugar superior pound for pound & in overall accomplishments, maybe the GOAT. Whether at MW? It might depend on styles. You may well be right in your assessment.
Tough fight to call Monzon is a top 5 all time Middleweight champ but SRR as the greatest fighter of all time just not at Middleweight....at Middle he was at his upper limit with the bigger more durable MW's outside of SRR there was no middleweight who was at a Monzon level during SRR's era and lets not forgot he had to lose the title 5 times to win it 5 times...I think at 160 they could split fights assuming they each brought their best
So why are you showcasing 7 out of 8 guys that he fought numerous years after 51 when he wasn't even close to what he'd once been? Guys from 5+ years past the stated version in this thread. He fought Fullmer in 57, 60 and 61 with even the first fights being more than half a decade after the stated version of Robinson. Robinson was 35+ by 1957 alone. Basilio was 57/58 so he's in the same boat as Fullmer above. The Pender fights were 1960 so here you are promoting a version of Robinson 9 years after what is being evaluated. A guy 39 years old. Downes was late 62 so we are over a decade out now with a 41yo Robinson. Moyer and Moyer were 62 as well so there's that. Giardello was 63 so we've got a 42 year old Robinson going to battle there. Of course Monzon was 7 years retired by then. I wonder how he would have went against Giardello at 42. If Monzon's fighting the 6 - 12 year later versions of Robinson you somehow envision then yes Monzon is looking pretty sweet. Sorta like Holmes over Ali and Tyson over Holmes.
Trouble being your comment was put out there before ETM, who in response to your post mentioned SRR was beating good middleweights in the early 40,s. with no mention of 41 mind you But yes fair chance you didn't read the title. Plenty of chuckles tho pointing out to ETM it was a 51 Robinson when you'd been thrusting forth his corpse!!!
I didn't really compare the dates. When he said early 40s Robinson is where I noticed the title. Seems to me there could have been a lot worse examples to put forth though.
It has been a while since I posted, but a hypothetical match 160 lb match between two greats of the the middleweight division would be a tough fight. First of all, resumes do not mean too much to me as again a fighter can only fight the opponents that are put in front of them and the ones that are available in their respective era's. Carlos Monzon was a tall middleweight champion, he was 5 ft 11 inches tall, had a long reach, hard left jab, and a booming right hand that produced 61 KO's in his 89 victories, just 3 losses and 9 draws. Carlos was a good counterpuncher, his last loss was on Oct 9 1964, spanning 82 consecutive victories. He also won the title from a Hall Of Famer, Nino Benvenuti, TKO 12, on Nov 7 1970 in Rome, Italy. He accomplished two things, he retired with 14 successful title defenses and retired with his title, having never lost it in the ring like many were unable to do. Sugar Ray Robinson was an extremely great champion as well in his own right, he had speed, movement, could finish an opponent that was hurt. He also defeated the opponents that were put in front of him. This bout is an interesting one at best, Monzon always found a way to cut off the ring against opponents with movement. The knock on Robinson was his inconstancy at middleweight, losing the title, regaining it 5 times, he became laxed in his training in his later years, Monzon a pack a day smoker was always in shape for his fights, taking every opponent seriously. If anyone could beat Monzon, it would be Robinson. But this would turn out to be a very tactical bout, Sugar Ray tying up Carlos's long arms at close quarters, Monzon pushing off Ray, poking out that long left jab, countering when Robinson misses. This fight to me is up in the air as each fighter has a great corner, Monzon had Amilcar Brusa and Ray had George Gainford. Both fighters had iron chins, it could turn out to ne a close fight as both fighters had immense confidence in themselves, and both had incredible stamina to fight 15 rounds. I think that Sugar Ray Robinson, Carlos Monzon, and Marvelous Marvin Hagler were the 3 champions that were the cream of the crop in the middleweight division.
I agree with you as it is a 2 way street . .A lot are talking about a 5 foot 8 La Motta as that would be some sort of pre cursor for Monzon .. And Monzon would have 4 pounds on him ..In fact, I cant think of 2 opposite ends of the spectrum style wise fighters, let alone Monzons height and reach .. No one is mentioning the '51 Robinson loss to the 5' 9 1/2 Turpin either .. So in '51 Robinson beats La Motta and splits with Turpin ... That doesnt mean jack **** when it comes to Monzon ... It's a 50 - 50 fight for me
Monzon is always one of the hardest ones to evaluate in terms of these dream fights. I pick Monzon in a very close fight just think he might be slightly too big and long and a natural middleweight rather than Robinson who was spectacular at welterweight.
I agree.. and I think actually . Monzon, Hagler, Greb, SRR ... all are 50-50 fights . .I mean it is so close where they all have an argument who was greatest at 160.. And if go by eye test, not necessarily resume , we might as well throw Roy Jones in there as well for the 50-50 fights at 160 .. I mean the reflexes and the hand speed, he's got all of them beat there (with Greb being the unknown) I think those 4 or 5 names right there , might be the most difficult to order in the history boxing
In regards to Robinson as a middleweight, I know you know this. There was a world of difference between his initial middleweight run and retirement. When he came back it wasnt because he missed boxing. He had lost his fortune and business. He was a man punching a time clock. He may have looked the same but his speed was diminished, couldn't moved effortlessly as he once had. He showed glimpses in those later fights. Sometimes fans lump it all together but it is no different than Ali in 1972 as opposed to 1977. An imposter.
