Lineal title if every champion had insisted on a rematch-if-I-lose clause?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by cross_trainer, Oct 10, 2021.

  1. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

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    If every champion from Sullivan onward had gotten a contract clause where they're guaranteed a rematch in the event of a loss, what would the lineal champion lineup look like? Would you expect any big changes?
     
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  2. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Boxing Drunkie Full Member

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    A big one is that if Holyfield had a rematch clause for Moorer, Foreman likely would have never regained the title.

    I think the 30's pre Joe Louis would have a good few changes, but probably doesn't make that big a difference to the overall picture, though I suspect Floyd Patterson wouldn't have been the first to regain the title.

    Of course, as the Fury Wlad fight shows, a rematch clause doesn't garuntee a rematch.
     
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  3. Garrus

    Garrus Big Boss 1935-2014 Full Member

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    Cosells Frazier call gets snapped away
     
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  4. Dempsey1238

    Dempsey1238 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I am sure some one would of regain the title before Patterson did. I give Corbett a great chance of being the first man to regain the title from Fitz. On a shorter fight, Johnson may regain the title from Willard. Charles beats Louis again if we count retirements. Foreman Ali II?? I give George a good chance in regaining the title from a more shot Ali depended on his demons. Tyson gets in shape to beat Douglas???
     
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  5. TBooze

    TBooze Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I think generally they all did (if not literally, then unwritten), just some did not take up the offer, or did later.


    I do not see history changing that much. Maybe Douglas struggles for motivation in a Tyson rematch; but that is about it.
     
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  6. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

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    Going down the list...

    - Sullivan probably doesn't exercise his rematch clause against Corbett. If he does, he loses again.

    - Corbett definitely exercises his rematch clause against Fitzsimmons. Likely loses again. He scored his successes in the first fight by blowing through more stamina than Fitz.

    - Jeffries fought Fitz twice in real life. Same result.

    - Hart might actually beat Burns in the rematch. Which would change history by giving Johnson a much tougher champ to face who'd beaten him before.

    But assuming Hart loses...

    - Burns may not even insist on rematch Johnson, considering the humiliating slaughter from fight 1.

    - Johnson would definitely insist on a rematch. Probably loses fight 2, since Willard is now champion so has even greater leverage to insist on fighting in extreme heat for a million rounds.

    - Willard might give a better account of himself if he trains for the second Dempsry fight, considering he did OK in his comeback. But really, this isn't going to change much.

    - Dempsey got his two shots.

    - Tunney doesn't need no stinking rematch clause.

    - Neither Schmeling nor Sharkey was champion when they fought for the vacant belt.

    - Schmeling may well beat Sharkey in a rubber match, leaving their score basically as indeterminate as it was in real life.

    But if Schmeling loses...

    - Sharkey might beat Carnera if given a shot.

    - Carnera probably gets flattened again by Baer.

    - Baer may well beat Braddock in a rematch.

    - Assuming Braddock wins the rematch with Baer, Braddock might be willing to go in for a second payday against Louis. But he loses.

    - Depending on whom you consider the challenger, Louis rematches Charles and makes more money for his IRS bills. But loses again.

    - Charles would lose a rematch to Walcott

    - Walcott would (did) lose a rematch as well to Marciano.

    - Floyd vs Moore was for a vacant title, so no rematch clause.

    - We saw what happened historically with Floyd, Ingo, Liston, and Ali rematches.

    - Ali-Frazier, assuming you insist Ali is the lineal champ, still probably ends like FOTC part deux. It'll have a more diligent ref than the real life Ali Frazier 2.

    - Foreman beats Frazier again.

    - Foreman probably still loses the Ali rematch, although Ali is on the decline and may not fight somewhere like Zaire again.

    - Ali probably wins the Spinks rubber match. Gets destroyed in a second Holmes fight, though.

    - Holmes lost his Michael Spinks rematch.

    - Spinks gets slaughtered a second time by Tyson

    - Tyson takes out Douglas in an immediate rematch, and wins the trilogy. If not, Holyfield wins the Douglas duology.

    - We saw Holyfield/Bowe 1-3.

    - Holyfield comes out on top in Moorer trilogy.

    - Moorer probably beats Old Foreman twice more.

    - Foreman gets robbed again by Briggs.

    - Briggs gets defeated twice by Lewis.

    - Interregnum.

    - Wlad is unlikely to do better against Fury a second time.



    I'm probably missing some people, but overall, it would have made a difference if older champions insisted on rematch clauses like the current crop do.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2021
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  7. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    The key points of contention as I see them:

    Corbett would have a very good chance of beating Fitzsimmons in a rematch.

    Hart would have a good chance of beating Burns.

    Johnson would have a fair chance of beating Willard.

    Schmeling would probably beat Sharkey in a rubber match.

    My guess is that Carnera probably wins a rematch against Sharkey, but it is not a given.

    Baer would probably win a rematch against Braddock, if his right hand held out.

    Ali might well have won a rematch against Frazier, before Foreman got to him, and then perhaps Foreman never holds the title.

    Tyson would probably have beaten Douglas, if his rematch clause had been honored.

    I would give Moorer a good chance of winning the title back from Foreman, but Holyfield would probably have got to him before Foreman anyway.

    I think that Wlad would have done batter in a rematch with Fury, and I picked him when I though that the fight was actually going to happen.
     
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  8. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Boxing Drunkie Full Member

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    An interesting point. With a rematch clause, Dempsey probably wouldn't have had the eliminator with Jack Sharkey, which might have meant Sharkey would get a shot at Tunney. I'd favor Tunney, but Sharkey could have beaten him I think
     
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  9. djanders

    djanders Boxing Addict Full Member

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    There is no Sharkey Eliminator, so Dempsey gets Tunney in the rematch, probably sooner and with a different referee. I know I'm sticking my neck out here but, IMHO, Dempsey has a good chance at regaining the title in this scenario, at least a better chance than he had in the real "rematch." Lightning doesn't have to strike twice in round seven in that case. (Maybe Dempsey only had one and a half lightning strikes coming after Dempsey vs. Tunney 1.) Then would there have been a Tunney vs. Dempsey three, or would Tunney have needed to beat Sharkey first?
     
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  10. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

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    In real life, I don't know.

    In this scenario, every loss by a champion is followed by a rematch for that champion. So if Tunney loses Fight 2, the following happens: Tunney gets a rematch, and Dempsey is guaranteed Tunney/Dempsey 4 will happen if Tunney beats Dempsey in Fight 3.