List your Top 5 Boxers Of All Time

Best is all about H2H ability.
Greatest is about achievements.

Which criteria do we judge upon ?!

Also, your list only contains HWs, it's a very silly list. No HW deserves to be on a top 5 all time list p4p.
At least not in terms of boxing ability.

Anyway, the GOAT list is:
1. Sugar Ray Robinson - by far
2. Armstrong
3. Greb
4. Duran
5. Pepp

TBE list. is harder to compile, but the no. 1. spot still goes to Sugar Ray Robinson

 

Well, listing one's favorites is not the same as listing the best ever.
If I use your criteria, my list is: Sugar Ray Robinson, Mike Tyson, Roy Jones Jr., Roberto Duran, Floyd Mayweather Jr..

 

I'll ignore the tone in your first paragraph. Condescension coming from somebody with such a low level of intelligence is more embarrassing than aggravating. And if you don't see the difference in ability between Henry Cooper the legendary Jose Luis Ramirez with his loss to the formidable Abdiel Ramirez, then you never will and we have nothing to talk about.

Ali never had any issues with Liston until he went BLIND. I'd say that's a pretty decent reason to lose one round. Furthermore, Pastrano won against Johnson in name only, and that fight has absolutely no relevance here. It's a sign of immense bias if you're using the Quarry situation as a slight on Liston. By the time Liston had already lost his title, Quarry wasn't even a professional fighter. If you're saying Liston was past his best by the first Ali fight, then he was miles past it by the time he could've possibly fought Quarry. Hardly fair to call that a duck.

There are countless examples of fighters fighting successful off the ropes, for example, Chavez vs Martinez, Mayweather vs N'dou, or Whitaker vs Ramirez II.

Foreman had fought loads of opponents his own size and indeed bigger. Chuck Wepner, Vernon Clay, Johnson, O'Halloran and Turnbrow. All of these weighed more than Foreman, or within a pound or two of him. He was the number one rated heavyweight and had had over 40 fights. He wa also an Olympian himself. The problem wasn't a lack of experience, the problem was that he wasn't good enough to beat Muhammad Ali.

It's funny how you try - and fail, miserably - to put down/criticise this win, as if Lomachenko has anything remotely close.

Yeah, the fouling and weight disparity were bad, but this is a fighter who was never anything special, who had been fighting for ten years since his first title shot, and had been absolutely dispatched by Garcia the year prior. That's how you deal with someone like Salido, not by winging that he's hitting you low and not doing anything about it.

20%??

Don't be so dramatic. There was an eleven pound weight difference. It's not like that's impossible to overcome. Especially for what you deem to be one of the five greatest fighters of all-time...

Furthermore, do you honestly think fighters never tried to foul Ali to beat him? Yeah, Ali didn't stop Mildenberger but at least he didn't lose... oh wait.


So Lomachenko 'thought' he'd out-box Lopez. And Lomachenko was wrong, since he gave those rounds up on a platter. There's no "TbF tO LoMA". Teofimo was already a champion, whose fights have been on TV for years, has had countless amateurs fighters which are not hard to get a hold of, and has extensive training footage on the internet. Lomachenko had plenty to work from. Lomachenko held onto an idea that never happened and so lost the first half of the fight clear as day. Once he realised he was losing, he went aggressive and still couldn't make the up difference so he went all out in the final round. Where he nearly got knocked out...

Lopez has been teasing a rematch, but also saying it's not happening. He's contradicted himself multiple times and if he goes to face bigger and better things such as Josh Taylor, the main name he seems to be focused on, then not giving Lomachenko a rematch is completely acceptable. He's already beaten him, and he's moved on. There's this weird thing where diehard fanboys seem to think a win is only valid if they do it twice.

It's interesting you use an example of when Ali was in his late mid-late thirties, had been fighting at world level for more than a decade and was so far past his best that it's not even funny watching it. The fact Ali took Shavers' monster power so well should be nothing but a positive at that stage of his career. Again, at least he didn't lose....

Wilder?

Don't start with semantics. I gave you fights between the number one and two in the world, and all of them were as one-sided as Foreman-Frazier. I'd argue Whitaker-Nazario was more one-sided.

You've got to be kidding me.

Rafael Ruelas, Art Frias and Juan Nazario showed more skill than Joe Frazier? Skill at what? Staying down? Getting hit with left hands?

Frazier didn't have a great right hand, but he certainly had one. Especially vs Quarry. It looked excellent going to Quarry's body. But what's it matter if he didn't have a great right hand? He still was an incredibly successful amateur and an all-time great. The fact he did all that with a anatomical inability to throw a jab, and 'no right hand', is extremely impressive. He did have some very good lateral movement at times. Watch the Chuvalo fight. Very tidy boxer-puncher. He isn't slow to start. He's just not going all out like Mike Tyson. He still fights at a higher pace than most of his opponents in the first few rounds, he just picked it up more and more in the later rounds. Y'know someone else who does that...

He was susceptible to one man's uppercut. A fighter with a great uppercut at that. It's what happens when you bob and weave. You get hit with well timed uppercuts. Who didn't let himself get pushed around by a prime Foreman?

Well, you did mention it you ****ing idiot

Furthermore, how is it a criticism to day he was being out hustled by a fighter who couldn't sustain his workrate? So Frazier paced himself better, and broke Quarry down. That's a bad thing now, is it?

What I say certainly means more than what you do arkid, you can take that to the bank. And what I said was not revolutionary. It's not my own definition. Everyone knows in boxing, pound-for-pound is where you judge all fighters across all weights. The only way to do that fairly is judge them by the standards of their own time and weight. Not by using the standards of a lightweight to assess a heavyweight, for example.

I'm not getting into who's more skilled between Ali and Loma. There's arguments either way, and it sure as **** isn't widely in favour a man whose skill wasn't adequate to defeat Teofimo Lopez. However, it isn't relevant to a thread on the top five greatest fighters of all-time. Of which, on every sensible list (although I don't expect sensible from someone who calls Tarver a journeyman), Muhammad Ali is above Vasyl Lomachenko.

And I urge you, please don't spend any more of your precious time on little old me. I don't want to be a burden and I definitely don't want to interact with you any more than I already have.

 

God, how I've missed seeing you destroy people.

 

P4P:
1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Manny Pacquiao
4. Willie Pep
5. Benny Leonard/Sam Langford

Favourites:
1. Thomas Hearns
2. Roman Gonzales
3. Ken Norton
4. Bob Satterfield
5. Evander Holyfield

 

The greatest fighters in their primes that I’ve seen in my lifetime.

Sugar Ray Leonard
Julio Cesar Chavez
Roy Jones Jr.
Manny Pacquiao
Pernell Whitaker.

Honourable mentions to Marvin Hagler, Floyd Mayweather Jr., Evander Holyfield, Mike Tyson, Thomas Hearns,Azumah Nelson.

 

George Crowcroft

George, Ali is clearly greater than Loma, that really isn't debatable at this point.
But at the same time Loma is way more skilled than Ali, that's also non debatable as far as I'm concerned.

The ATG boxers from smaller weight classes are more skilled than the ATG HWs, it's just the way things are.

 

Robinson "by far"!?!? The dude lost to Carmen Basillio and joey Maxim.

Greb beat guys like Tunney, Loughran, Walker and Gibbons. Maxim wasn't fit to carry their jock straps.

Hell, I would bet my house that Walker mauls Robinson. Robinson liked beating up on smaller men. Doubt he'll like it, though, when a smaller dude is beating up on him.

 

Robinson
Duran
Greb
Louis
Langford/Charles can't decide

 

Lol yeah, because that Salido fight was legit, just forget the 43 low blows. Loma also beat Lopez 8-4.

 

My GOAT list has changed somewhat over the years:

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Harry Greb
3. Sam Langford
4. Muhammed Ali
5. Henry Armstrong
Greb and Langford originally weren't in my top five.

 

Top 5 p4p

1. Willie Pep
2. Roberto Duran
3. Harry Greb
4. Henry Armstrong
5. Ray Robinson

Top 5 favorite

1. Roberto Duran
2. Jack Dempsey
3. Mike Tyson
4. Julio Cesar Chavez
5. Carmen Basilio