Maybe Liston wanted to just quit with that punch and he didn't think he sold the reaction well enough? Maybe he was confused with the referreeing? Maybe he thought Ali still wanted to get a go at him and was just defending himself? The only man who knew for sure was Sonny Liston and he's been dead for decades ... Even his death was an enigma like the second Ali fight
Both fights ended in very unconventional circumstances which is about the only thing anyone can say before moving into speculations. When a result is a shock, going well against popular forecast, the cry of “fix” is sometimes a reflexive accusation and belief. A denial of sorts. The shock was two fold in Miami. First, seeing Ali unexpectedly perform and succeed as he did and Second, Sonny abruptly retiring on his stool, despite well proven durability, only the second HW Champ to go out that way, Jess Willard being the first but Jess arguably being in far greater disrepair. Then came Lewiston Maine and if there were suspicions re Miami, they might’ve been reinforced and strengthened by a bout far more questionable than the first. Miami: Liston was simply not in the best shape for a long fight. He and almost everyone else figured Ali would last maybe 2 rds. I suppose a fighter can premeditate his will for a known challenge (say Liston v Williams) but invoking same during the course of a fight that was supposed to be easy might be another thing again. I think it was legit. Liston got caught out, absorbed more punishment than he had in years, hurt his shoulder and otherwise just quit. There are far easier ways to opt out if a fix was intended. Lewiston Maine: Liston trained hard, reaching the best shape in a long time, fight postponed due Ali’s hernia. Liston apparently despondent, but you can see the the remaining level of fitness he took into the ring. Why bother to whip yourself into such shape if planning to dive? Ali came in at a light 206 lb, perhaps looking to even greater mobility than the first fight unless it was simply a consequence of the hernia. First rd (only rd) Ali, as if gliding on air, looks super sharp, already easily catching Sonny with some stiff rights. Ali catches Liston with a discernibly solid punch, no phantom, Sonny drops. All well and good so far except the thoroughly examined punch, although good enough for a flash KD, doesn’t present as a justifiable KO shot. If Liston just stayed down, though still questionable, that would be one thing but his “attempt” to rise and then fall back down screamed fake. Ali, livid, fails to go to a neutral corner and Walcott, technically correct not to start a count but really, he had no clue as to what to do next. One too many pugs in the ring. : ) Liston was waiting for a count….in order to be counted out. It was obvious he wasn’t completely “out” so it would’ve looked ridiculous if he had just laid there, staying down all through “circus time”. He might’ve thought how hard is it to take a simple dive here? This contingency wasn’t mentioned in the playbook. So Liston hauls himself up by default but not appearing expressly willing to continue. It’s waved on but then stopped again as per Fleischer’s unofficial word and that’s it. All she wrote. Not sure if Fleischer was a Liston naysayer all along which may or may not have influenced his advice. Basically, I believe it was a legit flash KD with Liston then deciding he wasn’t going through the motions of the first fight so he elected to stay down. Of course there is also the fact that Ali illegally loomed over Liston and about the only thing that could’ve intimidated Sonny was Ali’s crazy persona which he could switch on in a second. At any rate, all just imho. In the total scheme, Liston was probably THE most controversial HW of all time. If not Sonny, then perhaps Ali himself. Either way, with them both together in the same ring at the same time, perhaps it wasn’t such long odds that some very off beat stuff might happen….I wonder if Ali-Liston II is in anyway eligible to be retroactively deemed a NC? I dunno. . .
No one can really know for sure and it was a really confusing series of events. At one point I believed that the fight might have been legit after I first heard about the Walcott-Fleischer scandal. Nowadays I am almost sure that the fight was in fact a fix, since Liston had a very solid chin even if the punch surprised him and caught him off-balance. Liston has proven his chin many times, for example against the powerful Cleveland Williams and Mike DeJohn just to name a few. I am not sure who exactly was behind the fix or who organized it though (the mob, NOI, etc). Recently I heard Michael Franzese talking about the fight in a Q&A and he said he knows for a fact that the fight was fixed. For those who don't know, Michael Franzese is a former captain/caporegime of the Colombo crime family and the son of the famous underboss Sonny Franzese. Michael wasn't around when the fight happened, but word gets around and his father was interested in boxing. For example if I recall correctly, Sonny Franzese attended the Ali-Folley fight. Of course you can't really trust the word of a former racketeer and mobster, but why would he lie? If he wouldn't be sure or wasn't too knowledgeable about the second Ali-Liston fight, why would he say that he knows the fight was fixed for a fact, which is a strong statement. This piece of information reinforces the argument that the fight was fixed. You can draw your own conclusions from this, but I hope that I brought at least something new to this debate. The first fight should be legit, at least the shoulder injury was very real and was proven by many doctors and others. I don't want to get into all that right now, but I encourage everyone interested to research the fight and the facts even more if you haven't already. I'm not sure if it is within the rules for me to provide a link, but I can name the video and give you a timestamp. The name of the video: Wise Guy Wisdom - LIVE Q&A with Michael Franzese Timestamp: around 41:25-42:30
Liston quit in the 1st fight,I don't think it was pre-arranged.Foneda Cox, Sonny's close friend and sparring partner said Liston dived in the 2nd fight.Cox who bet on Sonny asked why he didn't tip him off he was going for a swim,Liston replied ,"with your big mouth we'd both be wearing cement boots."
Very simple. Liston wanted to take a dive and played dead. The ref Walcott had misplaced his timekeeper and couldn't start the count. Ali wasn't going to a neutral corner, which made thing. Liston stood there and waited to ve counted out. After a huge amount of time had passed, Liston probably said to himself: This idiot (meaning Walcott) ain't gonna count me out, I might as well get up. So he did and they resumed the match. Then Nat Fleischer (Ring magazine editor, a Liston hater) made a sign to Walcott that the fight was over and Liston had lost. Walcott took his word as the Gospel and waved the fight off, declaring Ali the winner.
Partially correct. The punch did land, but it didn't affect Liston one bit. He simply fell cause he was already off balance after missing a jab.
If it is hardly possible to see if the second fight was influenced, how hard should it be to identify the first one ? Why would that be at all ? Because Liston did not look better ?
This. Liston was intimidated by Ali in the first fight,pure and simple. He was getting whipped and knew that it was n't going to end well for him. In the return,Sonny quickly realised that Muhammad was even better than he was the first time. He got up after the knockdown but even if the fight had n't have been stopped.Ali would have finished it not long after,anyhow.
To me it doesn't, rather he just didn't see any avenue to victory for himself after the first fight, showed up to collect his check and went away leaving people to speculate. Liston was throwing with full power and he was definitely going for the KO. It would have to be such a nuanced fix where they even know that Ali has the chin to take power shots from one of the most powerful punchers to have ever lived, and I think that's a really big leap of faith.
Speculation, we may never know, but Sonny Liston had been talking a lot about both fights prior to his demise. After his arrest in my hometown in Sept 1969 after assaulting two men that tried to assault him following a game of cards in the tough neighborhood of South Park Las Vegas, Liston began to spill his guts to the arresting Police Officer going on about both fights against Muhammad Ali had been fixed. Both assault victims declined to press charges, both suffered concussions, and contusions to their faces.
