If Larry Holmes had drawn a color line against Cooney, would you still consider Larry the champion?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by cross_trainer, Nov 15, 2021.



  1. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

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    Contrary to all economic sense, Larry Holmes draws a color line against Cooney, declaring that he will never fight a white man for the title. Larry then keeps this promise for the rest of his career, until he loses to Spinks.

    Does Larry cease being "the man" under these circumstances, in your opinion? Why or why not?
     
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  2. richdanahuff

    richdanahuff Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Yes but to what degree depends on what Cooney accomplished without him
     
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  3. GoldenHulk

    GoldenHulk Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Interesting question, but Larry had already beaten Lorenzo Zanon, Alfredo Evagelista, and Scott Ledoux in title defences, so Larry would be very hypocritical in not fighting Cooney, plus Cooney was more deserving than Zanon, Evangelista, and Ledoux, and there was huge public interest in the fight.
     
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  4. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

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    That raises another question. Would you mark Holmes off more or less if he was consistently racist instead, and ducked every white fighter his entire career?
     
  5. Gazelle Punch

    Gazelle Punch Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Love the reverse of the Dempsey. Holmes would be similar but probably dropped further in the rankings.
    Had Dempsey beaten Wills he’d be in the top ten on most people’s list.
     
  6. GoldenHulk

    GoldenHulk Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Of course.
     
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  7. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

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    Of course more, or of course less? Sorry, my original post may have been unclear. You are saying that you would penalize Holmes *more* for being a consistent racist?
     
  8. GoldenHulk

    GoldenHulk Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I have a further question in the early 1900's wasn't there a heavyweight champion of the world, and a coloured champion also?
     
  9. GoldenHulk

    GoldenHulk Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Yes
     
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  10. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

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    Yep. Which is part of the motivation for the question.
     
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  11. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member Full Member

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    Of huge importance. Cooney's reputation was immense for many going into the Holmes fight and far far outstripped his actual achievements. If he actually kept it going for a bit against better opposition while Holmes drew the color line there would be a lot of knockers. Of course whether Cooney could have kept it going against top #5 contenders is questionable given he never beat one.
     
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  12. Fergy

    Fergy Walking Dead Full Member

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    Or what about this scenario,ct?
    Cooney fights Ali first before Holmes, Kos Ali and become s linear champ!
    So Larry isn't official champion until he fight's cooney, which he refuses to do!!!;
     
  13. Tonto62

    Tonto62 Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    If you consider Sullivan .Corbett,Fitz,Jeffries,Hart , champions you wold have to accord Holmes the same courtesy imo
     
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  14. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

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    That's the downstream effect of the question, yes.

    One wonders how far it stretches. If Fury refused to defend against anyone of a different race tomorrow, would he still be champion? (Or if Joshua unifies, same question.) That kind of thing.

    We are prepared to accord champion status for race-related ducking in eras where it's commonplace. But there is sometimes hesitation to accord the same credit when it's transplanted to a different time when it's no longer widespread.

    (Then there are other forms of ducking that are just as blatant, but not as likely to offend.)
     
  15. Balder

    Balder Well-Known Member banned Full Member

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    Had he refused to fight white fighters he could only be considered the African Champion. The fact that he never unified, and fought less than stellar opponents would have diminished him even further.