What Was SRL Capable Of At Middle?

Leonard was great for sure, but he maximized his efficiency at the divisions he fought in.
I cannot fathom how folks think he would likely beat Hagler at MW.
Who had lost more in his many wars than Leonard was able to get back through his admirable training & effort.
Still it was very close & many think Hagler deserved the nod.

But Hagler had lost a fair amount of speed & agility.

 

He didn`t have much time, he faded quickly after the Hagler fight and wasn`t one of the most dangerous fighters in the world by 1988 at SM or LH, maybe he still might have been quick down at 160 but looked awful v Norris at 154 by 1991, don`t know how many good defenses he had left in him, Graham and Nunn were as quick as Ray by 1987 at 160.

 

Based on WHAT had Hagler seen better days!?!?!?!?

He was only 32.

Can you show me a point in his career where he would have ever beaten Leonard?

Leonard would have done just fine at Mw. He would have beaten everyone Hagler defended his belt against. He beat Geraldo, when he thought he was fighting a Welterweight:

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The rematch with Hearns was, essentially, a Middleweight fight. Ray won that, regardless of what haters say. In a championship fight he would have had the same additional rounds he needed in the first fight to pull out the finish.

Ray was naturally around 160 pounds in his physical prime. Sadly he preferred cocaine and partying with Hollywood's glitterati to his natural calling.

 

Combat Sports at the highest level is a game of inches. If you're off by an inch you're off by a mile.

You see this all the time in MMA. Look at McGregor since becoming a multimillionaire. Look at how GSP took the belt from Bisping and bowed out for good. There Welterweight division has been absolute rubbish (comparatively) since he left. But no one is calling for him to return because they understand the ramifications of his decision.

Even in team sports, once you reach High School if you miss a season your career is virtually over. In the Pro's the best get extra time and attention, so time away can be used to recover. Plus you have a team supporting you. In Combat Sports it's you and you alone.

Even a properly orchestrated comeback can be Leonard and Louis looked like their old selves when on the come-back trail. The former ran into McLarnin, and the latter Marciano.

Ray's career ended against LaLonde. Even though Donny was desiccated, Ray showed he was still a tremendous finisher above 147 lbs. Let's cease the career references there.

 

What is any of that based on!?!?!?!?

How do people get away saying crazy stuff!?

In the world of the blind, the man with one eye is king. After the demise on Monroe, Hagler was the only dude at Middleweight who had any concept of Boxing. Go back and watch the fights from that era. Their pitiful. They are entertaining, sure. Just don't ask for talent of skill. Porter would have been a Middleweight in that era and heralded as a Boxing maestro.

The reason you don't see guys as bad as Scypion, Mugabi, Sibson, Mustafa, Antoufermo, Lee, and Roldan on main cards to day is because Boxers today are trained professionals.

With all due respect to Whitaker and Mayweather, Ray Leonard was the closest thing we have seen to Willie Pep. And despite his comparative deficits to the GOAT, he tried his damndest to compensate with a nastiness Pep refused to embrace.

Hagler had very good Boxing skills, Leonard had ATG Boxing skills.

If you really think Hagler was washed up by the time he fought Leonard, I will remind you he was IN HIS PHYSICAL PRIME. If a dude is washed up at 32 there must be a lot wrong with him. You cannot have it both ways.

 

not much time for a Frank Tate or Michael Nunn but enough time for Don Lalonde?

It's as though any fan of Leonard is too afraid he might push the envelop too much and lose.

When Roy Jones moved to super middle, he made defenses

and when he moved up yet again to 175, Roy made defenses against all comers

but Leonard cant make 3 or 4?

To me, this suggests he is not a true force at the middleweight division otherwise, he would have no trouble proving himself against the top contenders. This is what Hagler had done for years

 

" With all due respect to Whitaker and Mayweather, Ray Leonard was the closest thing we have seen to Willie Pep."


See the Norris fight stupid

Of course, all you would have to do is compare their respective records

Leonard was 36 - 3 -1 overall while Pep went 72 -0 at one point then another 67 win streak

 

"The reason you don't see guys as bad as Scypion, Mugabi, Sibson, Mustafa, Antoufermo, Lee, and Roldan on main cards to day is because Boxers today are trained professionals."

Why cease his career with Lalonde; because there was a draw following it followed by two lopsided losses for all the world to see?

The rest of us have come to acknowledge that he lost to better fighters starting with Duran and ending with Camacho, now why don't you?

 

This ^ is why coat-hangers were actually invented.

 

Just stop talking. Do you think anyone takes you seriously?

Leonard returned to fight Hagler after a several-year lay-off. He was never as committed a fighter as he had been on his ascent. No one even pretends that.

Ali lost to Berbick. Louis was bombed out by Marciano. Foreman got out-boxed by Tommy ****in Morrison.

Since when do we evaluate fighters at their worst!?!?

 

it seems that when pressed for an explanation, you have none to offer

Regarding the comeback for Hagler, I'll go with the standard, more PLAUSIBLE explanations of how Leonard carefully timed his comeback in order to intentionally miss the prime of Hagler, rather than your way of making pathetic excuses like the one you just gave and other insane remarks such as

"The reason you don't see guys as bad as Scypion, Mugabi, Sibson, Mustafa, Antoufermo, Lee, and Roldan on main cards to day is because Boxers today are trained professionals."

Maybe you should have thrown in Thomas Hearns with them since he fell in a mere three rounds

 

What come back do I need!?!!?!? What did you say to warrant a comeback!?!?!? You think making a fool of yourself deserves a comeback!?!??
You should be saying "thank you, sir, for your acknowledgement. I apologize for my mistake and will better educate myself."

This is a pathetic way to go about getting attention. I don't need a comeback, you need to re-read my post. Clearly it went over your head. Is English your second language? If you are struggling with anything, just ask. Don't be silly. This is a place for ADULT discussion.

Yes, Ray stated, when watching the Mugabi fight, he saw Hagler struggling. I don't dispute that some of Hagler's performances were worse than others. I simply want proof that he was actually waning.

Mugabi was never a great fighter. He was very, very dangerous (for similarly crude fighters). But he was rushed along for a reason, he didn't have it in him to become a refined Boxer. It wasn't just that he lacked the natural skill, his heart wasn't in it: once the money came pouring in he preferred his time at the shopping mall to the gym. He was gonna derail sooner or later, so they rushed him in against Hagler, raw as he was, to cash in before he crashed out.

Now, to his credit, he DID tighten up for the Hagler fight. He was a much better fighter than we had ever seen before. And while it's fair to say "Hagler ruined Mugabi", Mugabi had given all he had to give and more in preparation for that fight. He learned he just didn't want to be a Boxer any more. Road work sucks. Dieting sucks. In college, Wrestling will get you a scholarship, it'll get you a degree, it'll network you with other successful individuals so that the road to success is pathed for you, it has a set season, and there's a clear end point. Mugabi didn't have that. Chump change, though, made him richer than any chief back in Uganda.

If Mugabi had fought Hagler like he had fought everyone else leading up to that fight it would have looked a lot different. Mugabi would have done better than Sibson, but worse than Hearns.

I could just as easily look at the Mustafa fights and tell you Hagler was custom-built for Ray Leonard. Ray's youth, however, might have meant his frame was not yet ready for the extra weight.

As for Hearns, he really did a number on Hagler. Leonard and Benitez didn't get banged up like that. Barkely DEFINITELY didn't get banged up like that. Mad props to Marvin for pulling out that win. It WAS Hagler's head that broke Hearns' fist, so that argument doesn't really need to be pursued.
However, Hearns was moving up in weight and clearly not adjusted to fighting at 160 pounds.
How would Hagler have done moving up to fight the guy that beat Hill? How about Hagler against Tommy Hearns the Cruiserweight champion?
Do you think Pryor was better than Hearns because he clapped that ass in the amateurs? Or do you realize Tommy was very far from a finished product and matured into a much better fighter than Pryor could ever hope to be?

That's all a discussion for a different thread. The point is, Hearns don't fight like Leonard. Leonard didn't need to see triple-vision and forget his name in order to beat Hearns.

And you clearly deflected: Hagler fought **** competition. Leonard would have handled those opponents. Just be a man and admit it.

 

What gruelling fights!?!?

Roberto Duran was a grueling fight? Willie Monroe was grueling fights?

Did he fight Gregory? Braxton? Spinks? Muhammad? Or was it HIS opponents who were moving up in weight? Did he ever fight above Middleweight?

We're definitely not talking about Harry Greb.

We're not talking about Jimmy McLarnin.

Hell, we're not even talking about Carlos Monzon or Archie Moore.

People rag on Golovkin supposedly getting a gift decision against Derevyanchenko, but at 37ish years of age, he still looked better than Hagler ever did. Who did Hagler fight pre-Leonard who would have heard the final bell if substituted for the Ukrainian!?

Some guys age faster, some guys age later. Looks like Hagler did both. Don't get me wrong. Please, read this sentence several times: Hagler was a GREAT fighter, and the icon of professionalism in an era of wasted talent. It is just that fans seem to elevate him to a level he never actually reached during his career. Conversely, there's a lot of hate for Ray Leonard. I am just trying to bring things back to reality.