An unbiased look at Wilder’s top 10 opponents

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by NEETzschean, Dec 28, 2021.



  1. The Clan

    The Clan Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Against white collar boxing and tomato can level fighters who were quite happy to go down and stay down after the first meaningful slap they received
     
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  2. Pepsi Dioxide

    Pepsi Dioxide Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I'm totaling how many fights each guy has fought with a fighter who was ranked in the top ten at the time that they fought them. That's it. Most peoples records are filled with journeymen and fringe contenders. Its interesting to see who is actually fighting people considered (at least by the TBRB) as top ten heavyweights at the time they fought them. Im not trying to make an argument here on who is superior.
     
  3. Pugilist_Spec

    Pugilist_Spec Hands Of Stone Full Member

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    Bringing up Tyson is dishonest. Norton ran Holmes as close as anyone in his prime. It was an either way sort of fight with Holmes barely edging it. Nobody came close to scaring Holmes like that until 6 years later when he ran into Carl Williams. By this point you could see Holmes was on the physical decline, couldn't make his preferred weight and looked a good bit slower and rustier.

    His argument was that the 70s are overrated because all the guys were fighting close fights and nobody stood out among them. And if someone dominated it would have been viewed as a weak era. Well Holmes was a dominant champion from 78-85. Thats 7 years, 20 title defenses and only 3 really close bouts among them. And Holmes was no better than Ali and Norton, not by a long stretch any way.

    Foreman ducked absolutely nobody of note in the 70s. Who was realistically a tough opponent that he didnt face? Quarry? Shavers? Lol. Neither of those guys would make his top 5 wins and they werent a threat stylistically either.

    Foreman fought Frazier, Norton and Ali in the span of 2 years. That would be like Fury fighting AJ, Usyk and Wilder in the span of 2 years. Put things in perception man.

    And Foreman in the 90s was a bit calculating and not a real champ. But nobody is claiming that Old Foreman was a genuine ATG head to head. The fact that he could accomplish what he did facing modern heavyweights at an advanced age speaks for itself though. Briggs was in the ring with Vitali. Foreman fought him more than a decade earlier when he was in his physical prime, at the aqe of 48 !!! and got robbed. Let that sink in.

    Nobody is claiming that Foreman and co are so much better than the heavyweights that came after them. But the narrative being pushed by you and some other posters that they would be completely overmatched against guys today is absolute bs and you know it.
     
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  4. VOXDEI

    VOXDEI DUNCE Full Member

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    This is naive, every champion faces bums at the start of his pro career. Sometimes the first 10 or 15 opponents are complete garbage, and yet you will struggle to find more than a handful with Wilder's KO percentage, in their opening 15 bouts.
     
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  5. VG_Addict

    VG_Addict Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Joshua's resume is still better than Wilder's, and it's not even close. Whyte, Povetkin, Wlad, Pulev, Parker, and Takam are better than ANYONE Wilder has fought.

    ****ing Charles Martin would be one of Wilder's best wins. THAT'S how bad Wilder's resume is.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2021
  6. The Real Lance

    The Real Lance Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    "unbiased".... what a crock o ****...
     
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  7. BubblesUK

    BubblesUK Doesn't buy hypejobs Full Member

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    If this isn't a typo, it might just be the most nonsensical thing I've read on these boards this month.... And that's saying something.

    No, Ortiz skill levels are a million miles away from Usyk's - there's a reason Usyk's beaten elite fighters and won belts at two weights and Ortiz hasn't and (spoiler alert) it's because Usyk has elite skills and Ortiz isn't close.

    Looking slick against C grade fighters doesn't mean a thing - the eye test is still only as good as the ability of opponents to make it difficult to exhibit your skills, and Ortiz is a classic case of, to coin a phrase, If you only fight against shyte, it doesn't mean shyte.

    If Ortiz skills were remotely close to Usyk's he'd have beaten Wilder both times, and he wouldn't have needed to hide most of his career fighting journeymen and the occasional gatekeeper - he'd have been a champion if he'd been remotely close to that level.
     
  8. VG_Addict

    VG_Addict Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    And yes, more often than not, the HW division is weak, simply because there aren't that many 6'3+, 220+ pound people who can fight.
     
  9. The Real Lance

    The Real Lance Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    How does one come to this conclusion? One of the two fought the top guys. The other... just fought Wilder....
     
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  10. NEETzschean

    NEETzschean Well-Known Member banned Full Member

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    You ignored the fact that it was Holmes's first championship fight (i.e. as a contender, not a prime dominant champion) and Norton was extremely experienced in beating opponents with the same style as Holmes, had just come off a win over Young. It's questionable whether Ali won a single fight against Norton, Holmes's win was less controversial albeit close and light punching 20-5-2 Young had schooled and dropped prime Foreman. I don't think the inexperienced "prime Ali" from the 60's would have had much chance against a rangier and more modern athlete in prime Holmes, who had spent 4 years living with Ali in the 70's as a sparring partner. Holmes didn't start losing to much smaller men until he was in his mid 30's, Ali lost to one before he was 30. And Norton was far less versatile, getting KO'd early by any big puncher he faced and even a light punching 188 pound journeyman earlier in his career.

    I'm sure a chain could be made of lightweights who beat welters, who beat middleweights, who beat heavyweights. But it doesn't prove that lightweights could beat heavyweights. You use the same logic to suggest that heavyweights from 50 years ago would be competitive with the top men today. The closest thing to a modern SHW in the 80's was 6'4, 225 lbs 25 year old less active contender Cooney, who gave 32 year old dominant champ Holmes a competitive fight over 13 rounds. None of these guys fought a modern SHW, none of them fought a southpaw of any quality. Louis said he never would, Holyfield was the only guy pre-Klitschko to fight them and he lost 3/4 times, openly admitting that he had a problem with them. The HW division is, like all sports, far more scientifically and technically advanced these days, with 50 years of history to learn from and far more global; half the world isn't prevented from competing by political and economic walls. 4 of Lewis's 7 listed non-walkover losses were to Soviet school opponents, maybe they would have been top heavies if they'd been allowed to turn pro.

    Jimmy Young wasn't thought to be a tough opponent for Foreman but Foreman got schooled and almost stopped. Ron Lyle dropped Foreman heavily twice and almost stopped him and Shavers was a bigger puncher than Lyle. Quarry beat Lyle and KO'd Shavers in one round. And Foreman said he ducked both of them, along with Tony Tucker, Bowe, Tyson and Axel Schulz. Tommy Morrison wasn't known for being a slick backfoot boxer with an iron chin or great gas tank but he schooled old Foreman over 12, Holyfield did significantly better. Foreman was a weak champ in the 90's, got several controversial decisions against lesser opposition and had a farcical reign. Briggs was no barometer of HW greatness and got schooled by "Klitschko era bum" Jameel McCline in Briggs's prime.

    "Foreman fought Frazier, Norton and Ali in the span of 2 years. That would be like Fury fighting AJ, Usyk and Wilder in the span of 2 years. Put things in perception man."

    It's not really though because by modern standards all of those 70's HW's are small, lighter punchers and two of those fights were over in 2 rounds because Frazier and Norton had relatively poor chins. Fury fought Wilder 3 times in 3 years, twice while semi-fit and inactive/semi-active and Wilder fought 6'8, 270 lbs Fury 3 times in 3 years, once coming off a terrible beating. Usyk may fight AJ twice and Fury in a year, which even by your standards has to be more impressive.
     
  11. NEETzschean

    NEETzschean Well-Known Member banned Full Member

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    By those standards it was far weaker in the 70's when the global population was much smaller, half the world wasn't allowed to compete and men were much shorter and lighter.
     
  12. NEETzschean

    NEETzschean Well-Known Member banned Full Member

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    "at least by the TBRB"

    As far as I'm concerned, any rankings agency that has Martin and Breazeale as 9th place opponents but Usyk as 10th has zero credibility. It's also highly subjective how many points AJ should lose for his loss to Ruiz, or how many he should gain for winning the rematch.
     
  13. NEETzschean

    NEETzschean Well-Known Member banned Full Member

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    At least Wilder (who was younger and had less than half as much boxing experience before he turned pro) didn't go down 4 times against a 25/1 tomato can and quit.
     
  14. NEETzschean

    NEETzschean Well-Known Member banned Full Member

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    They're not though, you're just swallowing the Matchroom propaganda. I also like how you didn't mention Ruiz, I wonder why...

    Green, 3 punches landed, 2nd round quitter Martin wouldn't make Wilder's top 10.
     
  15. The Real Lance

    The Real Lance Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    this is what happens when one tries to 'Logic' an argument they don't have.....