My friend who was a huge Frazier fan said the second fight was sadder than the first because at least he wasn't fighting backing up.
To me it's Dempsey's chaos that would stand him in better stead against Foreman than any other variable. At his peak Jack fought like he was literally out of his mind, not entirely predicable. For that reason I even think he'd give Holmes a tough fight, as Holmes preferred more straightforward fighters.
Meh, he did a lot better, and showed decent adaptive skills. He was the only victim of Foreman in his first career (Besides Peralta) to answer the bell for the 5th round without being dropped, something Lyle, Norton, etc didn't come close to doing, and may have even won a round or so. Though he lost, his performance was a personal victory in itself, all things considered.
For me it's man vs boy. Foreman is surely the worst fighter in history for Joe. I think there are a couple of other bad matches for him too but Foreman, jeez.
Meh I think Liston is an even worse match-up. Liston wouldn't need to resort to illegal (but highly effective) tactics to create room for his punches, he had that jab which would serve that exact purpose.
Don't know if Tyson fits the "swarmer" category. I always thought so, but what do I know? Recent threads seem to have parsed the category rather fine, IMO. I'd like to have seen the young, prime Tyson in against the young, prime Foreman.
The plan was to try and take him into deeper water but Foreman could have fought near all night with so little pressure applied. It was certainly different seeing Joe like that wasn't it.
He did a lot better than he should have, but I think it became obvious after a couple of rounds he was doomed.
Wasn't Foreman in good shape for that aswell ? I seem to remember he was alot thinner, compared to most of his fights in his 2nd career.
I agree. I think any swarmer is ****ed at the end of the day against Foreman but if I had to send in someone it would be FOTC Frazier. I think he makes it somewhat competitive before taking hellacious blows, continuing to get up somehow, forcing the ref to step in.
I think Liston is a bad match up too. I can't personally say worse because we saw what Foreman did to Joe and we know he beats him into the dirt. I'm not convinced the "illegal" tactics made much difference TBH. Futch made a huge issue and various comments about Ali's pulling Frazier's head down (133 times etc etc) but i'm not sure i ever heard anything much about Foreman? Futch went to incredible lengths (having Clayton blocked from reffing just for starters) to avoid Ali's pulling of the ehad down prior to their rubber match but i don't recall much of anything regarding Foreman and the rematch? If Futch thought it pivotal he would have been screaming from the rooftops. Instead he virtually reversed his fighters style. Foreman too could jab of course.
It's possible and I think Foreman beats him regardless of whether he shoved Frazier back, but before the shoving started, I seem to recall the fight (I've admittedly not watched the fight in quite some time, because it makes me uncomfortable as a Frazier fan) being fairly even and Frazier able to find his way inside. The referee stopped it, midway through the second round but the result was all but a formality at that point.
Cus was talking about first career Foreman. Foreman had been retired for years when Cus made the remark and he died before Foreman ever came back. Who knows what he would have thought of second career George. Second career George most certainly wouldn't have been near as bulletproof against swarmers as his previous incarnation.