Liston vs. Patterson.

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by VG_Addict, Apr 1, 2022.



  1. VG_Addict

    VG_Addict Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Why did Liston beat Patterson so easily both times? Was Patterson not that good, or was he just tailor-made for Liston?
     
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  2. Bah Lance

    Bah Lance Active Member banned Full Member

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    There were physical factors. Liston had over 20 lbs on him and Patterson wasn't exactly a strong or durable guy to begin with, despite his big heart. So the margin of error was already slim for Patterson.

    Patterson's speed and reflexes also seemed to be slowing after the Ingo wars, he was on his way out regardless. Cruising on his speed as he did in his early 20s was becoming more difficult.

    Strategically...Liston had the Bolo Punch beautifully scouted. Liston also threw his punches low...catching Patterson in his bob and weave... completely throwing his timing off.

    Ultimately, I just don't think Patterson was a great strategist. Like Tyson, another Cus fighter, he had gorgeous execution but was never very adaptive in the ring. Very offensive minded with programmed attacks, little variation. After these fights, he would start to adapt a more counter punching mentality at least.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2022
  3. PittSteel

    PittSteel Member Full Member

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    I agree with all this.
    On top, I'd add the mental aspect of the fight(s):
    Patterson was a popular champion going up against a brutal & intimidating challenger, and everyone wanted Floyd to beat this behemoth in the opposing corner. Patterson had everything to lose, and he was not just facing some no-hoper. On the other end Liston had everything to win, and had a real chip on his shoulder from being denied a title shot for years.
     
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  4. Ali Holmes

    Ali Holmes Active Member banned Full Member

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    Liston was a powerful puncher who had a significant size advantage over Patterson. It's not hard to imagine Patterson meeting with the same fate vs Mike Tyson or Riddick Bowe or Lennox Lewis
     
  5. djanders

    djanders Boxing Addict Full Member

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    #1. I think Liston was better than Patterson, as did most people I knew, BEFORE the 1st fight.
    #2. On top of Liston being "better," Patterson's style was perfect for Sonny to exploit.
    #3. And I don't think Patterson, himself, thought he could beat Liston, in spite of his speed advantage.
    #4. Add in reach, size, punching power, intimidation, timing, etc., and it's almost a hopeless situation for Floyd.
     
  6. KasimirKid

    KasimirKid Well-Known Member Full Member

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    I really don't believe Patterson was all that popular as a champion. People appreciated that he was a nice person but the crown always sat uneasily on his head after Floyd (through D'Amato) ducked his top two challengers in 1958, lost to Johansson in 1959, and then dilly-dallied with Johansson throughout 1960 and 1961. Fans were tired of all the inaction and same old faces by the time Floyd and Johansson were done hoarding the title for three years. People remember him now as a grand old man of boxing, but it wasn't quite so straightforward back then. Sure a lot of people wanted Floyd to beat the bogey man Liston, but they also wanted more action and new challengers after those doldrum years when Floyd was such a recluse. Patterson's real popularity came after he began his comeback after losing to Sonny.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2022
  7. Fergy

    Fergy Walking Dead Full Member

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    Poor Floyd. I don't think he ever stood a chance if he'd faced Liston twelve more times!
     
  8. swagdelfadeel

    swagdelfadeel Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I mean he might get lucky once. I wouldn’t favor Liston to beat him 100 times out of 100.
     
  9. RulesMakeItInteresting

    RulesMakeItInteresting Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    That's an interesting idea.
    To me Patterson was like Spinks vs Iron Mike. Hopelessly terrified. I could be wrong.
     
  10. Dynamicpuncher

    Dynamicpuncher Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Bigger, Stronger, Patterson's chin also wasn't the best wasn't he floored like 20 odd times in his career ? a chinny fighter against fighter like Liston is never gonna bode well, also Liston had the fear factor Patterson was intimidated by Liston like Spinks was vs Tyson.
     
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  11. Dubblechin

    Dubblechin Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Actually, the opposite is true. Floyd Patterson was a wildly popular heavyweight champion.

    His gold medal win at the Olympics was on national television. He was the first heavyweight champion to have practically his entire early pro career televised nationally. He was the first Olympic champion and the youngest man to win the world heavyweight title. Most of his heavyweight title fights were on closed circuit television (Roy Harris, the three Johansson fights, McNeeley, both Liston fights, and the challenge against Ali) when other title fights at that time weren't.

    Patterson's fight with George Chuvalo was the largest selling non-title closed circuit fight in boxing history to that point. It also sold out Madison Square Garden. It was a huge sporting event that year and set up the first Ali-Patterson fight later that year which was also on closed circuit.

    Arguably more people watched Floyd Patterson on his way to becoming champ and while he was champion than had ever watched any heavyweight champion up to that time ... thanks to TV and closed circuit. Floyd was the champion when television exploded and the country went from practically nobody having one to everyone having one.

    Patterson's popularity didn't come AFTER he lost his title. Liston and Ali were both "unpopular" champions for mainstream sporting fans during their reigns in the 1960s. So Patterson's mainstream popularity - from his days as champ and after - stood out. (Patterson was even Ali's hero when Ali was coming up.)

    Floyd was popular from the Olympics on. His popularity didn't start to wane until the end of his career.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2022
  12. Pugguy

    Pugguy Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Floyd def. held fear of Liston - but he certainly wasn’t Robinson Crusoe in that regard.

    Also, with all debilitating fear removed, I don’t know that Floyd could’ve done much better -fear sometimes has a very solid and valid basis in the first instance. Sonny simply had all the physical and stylistic advantages.

    I guess it didn’t help either that Floyd had so much time to fret over a fight that should’ve come off several years prior.

    I’ve defended Floyd’s chin before. IMO, reasonably so without undue personal investment.

    Some of the KDs were cases of being off balance and porous defence, especially given the manner in which Floyd would leap in, open to counter. There was also at least one KD that was incorrectly ruled.

    Of course that’s not to say Floyd had a chin like Ali or Holmes. Not at all. The crux of my point was that despite the number of KDs suffered, Floyd didn’t suffer anywhere near the KOs/Stoppages that one might extrapolate those KDs into.

    They were what they were - KDs - almost all of which Floyd arose from anyway to viably fight on - otherwise Floyd upheld very admirable resilience in absolute terms - and particularly so given his relative size disadvantages.. And NO ONE did to Floyd what Liston did - and not just once, but TWICE.
     
  13. bboyrei

    bboyrei Member Full Member

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    Remember watching a 70s HW fight where they introduced past champions, Patterson got massively applauded perhaps moreso than others. Frazier and Ali were there, Frazier getting mostly applause as well while Ali was booed by like half the audience.

    Patterson was also chosen over Liston and Foreman who was still in the middle of his comeback for the Sega game greatest heavyweights.
     
  14. Journeyman92

    Journeyman92 I’m become seeker of milk Full Member

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    A blown up light-heavyweight with too much courage and not enough caution. Always felt like the older Patterson with more reserve would’ve done something worth writing home about. Though his ability to take a punch would always inhibit him in with someone like Sonny.
     
  15. Journeyman92

    Journeyman92 I’m become seeker of milk Full Member

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    If people were well read he’d have been booed his entire career.