Did Nino Valadez ever deserve a shot at Rocky?

"Harry Kid Matthews didn't stand a chance against Murderers Row"

Matthews was born on December 9, 1922. He fought Chase on July 23, 1943 and Eddie Booker less than three weeks later on August 9, 1943. So Matthews when he lost to these two was several months short of his 21st birthday.

In his next fight after beating Matthews, Jack Chase defeated Archie Moore, much older and more experienced than Matthews. Chase also defeated Lloyd Marshall around this time.

Eddie Booker stopped Archie Moore later that same year. He also defeated Lloyd Marshall and Holman Williams.

So how bad exactly is it to lose at 20 to older, more experienced fighters of this quality?

Matthews would not lose again for 9 years until KO'd by Marciano.

You have a point that his upside is somewhat thin, but his downside is not much of a downside by any fair measure.

 

"Weill didn't want Marciano to fight Matthews"

Why not if he was nothing but a hype job? The fight was a good moneymaker, drawing more than 31,000 to Yankee Stadium. You claim Matthews was seen as an easy payday so why wouldn't Weill jump at it?

 

"Moore was kept away from MSG because he was too good."

It had to be a little bit more than that. Sugar Ray Robinson was a MSG regular. Ezzard Charles fought Elmer Ray and Joe Baksi at the Garden around the time he was beating Moore three times.

I am not certain of the exact reason, but this explanation seems weak. What is the real explanation? Connections? Gate appeal?

As for Matthews, he generally impressed the New York writers when he handily defeated Murphy in March of 1950.

 

Nobody deserved a shot at Rocky!

 

Don’t forget Matthews was on military leave and didn’t even train for those fights. He needed the money for his wedding I believe

 

I gave you Springs Toledo's opinion, you can dismiss it if you wish.
You are not going to budge from your present position, so let us agree to disagree.

 

I only made the factual points that Matthews was only 20 years old when losing to men who also beat Archie Moore that year. I think it fair to ask how much this proves.

Agree to disagree is agreeable to me also.

 

Take up your points with Springs Toledo they are his quotes not mine.

 

Did rocky really deserve his first shot at a Pollo?

 

By God, yes he did!!

 

Again I'm giving you a quote from a book,you can accept or reject it as you wish.

"It was then that Hurley started to bang the drum for a Marciano v Mathews match,yelping that the IBC was shutting his fighter out of New York while mocking Marciano,"this great star they were keeping in cellophane".Neither the powerful IBC or the cautious Al Weill wanted the fight,but Hurley managed to swing public sentiment to his side.
With the New York Commission breathing down its neck for alleged improprieties,the IBC couldnt afford anymore negative publicity.After convincing the reluctant weill to let his champion -in -waiting Marciano face Mathews,the IBC caved and offered Hurley the match and he accepted."

Hurley on building up Mathews."I made sure he didn't fight any great fighters",I picked em mostly by their styles,guys that had styles just right for Mathews.I always picked guys that really wanted to get in there and fight,and lick my fellow,and while they were doing it my fellow was counter punching and looking great."Rocky Marciano The Rock Of His Times,by Russell Sullivan.Chapter 5 pages 110 &111.

 

"Neither the powerful IBC or the cautious Al Weill wanted the fight"

I have no problem with these quotes. They back up my point. Why would the IBC or Weill be reluctant to have a fight with a guy who was merely a hype job? And was a good gate attraction?

"I made sure he didn't fight any great fighters"

I think he means "boxers" off what he is saying here. If Marciano wasn't a great fighter, who was in the heavyweight division? So I have no problem accepting this quote.

Just for balance, though, remember that Hurley had an ego. It has been reported that Bill Belichick said off the record that there were ten guys who would have won as many Super Bowls as Tom Brady if he coached them. Brady left the Patriots and Belichick and immediately won a Super Bowl with another team and coach. Belichick has had other quarterbacks than Brady in 9 of his 27 years as a head coach and in those 9 seasons has a losing record. He won Super Bowls 1/3 of the time he had Brady. Belichick is a great coach but he has an ego. It is not unlikely Hurley did also.

And for balance, I think your take is generally fair if we focus only on the negative. What becomes unfair is to ignore the positives while spinning losing to top five fighters at 20 years of age as evidence Matthews was never any good.

 

I never mentioned his losses at 20 years of age and its entirely possible Springs Toledo was referring to Mathews h2h with those guys irrespective of age. I assume Hurley was talking about his building up of Mathews prior to the Marciano fight a fight which rather exposed Mathews imo. I'm not saying he wasnt a good fighter,but he was no world beater, and most of his wins were over lhvys and heavies past there sell by date. Marshall was finished, Charles was shot to bits so was Muscato.Layne and Lastarza were seriously on the down side after Marciano ruined them.Mathews like Cockell ,got ranked by clever matching over guys who had names ,but were no longer relevant imo.Murphy a face first slugger with no defence was made to order for Mathews just as he was for Maxim.