How many modern-type HWs did Ezzard Charles fight?

Johnny Haynes (6'4, 214 lbs)
Joe Baski (6'1 210 lbs)
Bob Albright (6'1 and 218 lbs)
Joe Louis (6'2 and 217 lbs)
Nino Valdes (6'3 and 210 lbs)

Yeah, I know it's hard to use boxrec these days. By the way, 216 lbs has to be the most random number ever picked here...

 

I mean, most guys even the bigger sorts of the old day's our Jack Johnson's, McVeys, Joe Louis's ect were all on the shallow end of 200lbs at times 190. I don't think that the 80s-90s guys were naturally much bigger boxers, probably about the same in most cases. it's just most of those boy's were on the sauce and lifting weights. That's usually an easy extra 20-30lbs for men.

 

Re: 216 pounds --

Cruiserweight is an artificial and silly weight class. The modern, rehydrating cruiserweight division's choice about where it draws the line doesn't tell us much about 1950-1980 heavyweight boxing, IMO.

If you're looking for a line that divides the big, (most likely) pre-steroid heavyweights from their predecessors, you're looking for clusters rather than an exact line. The jump was roughly from 190, 6'0"ish heavyweights to 210, 6'2"+ish ones. Prime Ali, Liston, Holmes fluctuated around that second line. Foreman was a little bigger. The last pre-modern sized tournament for the lineal belt was the one Frazier won, with lots of little heavyweights.

Then another jump after steroids come into boxing undeniably in the 80s/90s. As @Journeyman92 mentioned.

That said, it's your thread, and perhaps the rigid line is there to gather some data unrelated to all this. Carry on.

 

Dave Ashley 6”6 261 as well
If being overweight were a skill the larger men of the day would have been champions. Unless you’re suggesting those men didn’t exist at all? In which case you’d be wrong. Being over weight for your height is not a skill. Having access to modern steroids and training methods is not a skill nor is it anything anyone from the past also couldn’t do. Not sure why you’re so obsessed with the size issue.

 

I'm not sure exactly what you mean, but I think I agree. The 80s/90s guys clustered at a bigger size than the mid-70s guys (with the difference due to steroids, probably), and the mid 70s guys were in turn bigger than the 50s/60s guys. The tournament that ended in 1970 with Frazier as king of the mountain was the last hurrah of the little 60s sized guys. Ellis, Quarry, Bonavena, Frazier himself, Patterson, etc. As the 70s wore on, more and more Ali-sized fighters showed up, until they became the norm.

I think bringing in the cruiserweight division needlessly complicates the issue. 200+ guys who dehydrate and rehydrate around the 200 mark, lift weights, and use modern PEDs aren't the same type of critter as 210-220 pound heavyweights in the 1970s.

Whatever Boxrec says. I don't think it's a poll sort of question. The weights are the weights, unless you think Boxrec made an accounting error somewhere.

EDIT: Unless the thread is a roundabout way of asking what Johnny Haynes would weigh if he used modern PEDs and had the option of dehydrating himself overnight to cruiser. If that's what it's asking, I have no idea.

 

By your definition he wouldn't be fighting modern type heavyweights in Holmes, Liston and Shavers anyway.

From the start of his career all the way through to Cooney Holmes never hit 216 pounds once. His peak target weight was 212 pounds.

Liston's peak weights were somewhere around 212 as well.

Shavers peak in shape weights were 210 or less.

Weaver's peak weight was 210 or less.

Holmes despite being peak around 212 for me is most certainly a modern heavyweight unless you want to stick to guys like the Klits, Lewis, Joshua and co.

 

That's ridiculous logic

Louis overweighed compared to modern HWs? Don't be silly...

 

Guys got bigger for a variety of reasons.
Gradually the average height increased, adding a few lbs.
Then starting from the 1960's a few guys had more muscle or height than the average guy-Ali, Liston, Foreman...
There was no time when there was a precipitous jump, but I think roughly in the 1980's guys started more commonly hitting a "critical mass".

Holmes had more "modern" sized challengers than other champions, right?
Guys a bit taller on average, mainly more muscle.
This was due to weightlifting & steroids-but that does not mean nor show most men used, although if this was the case or close to it, the 1990's were likely the peak of it.

But it is additive: as is the fact that the body fat percentage of the average HW has crept up.
It need not be a large difference-nor other factors-but when you add a little more height, a little more muscle (some with PEDs), a little more fat...All together, the average difference is now quite large compared to say 45 years ago.


I do think the Cruiserweight division is a really good thing to have.
A basic principle of fairness & measuring skill & will is allowing guys to fight people roughly their same weight or lean body mass.
It makes sense to have a no upper limit category-& the advantage reached a place of diminishing returns-but men around 200 (or more rehydrated, the wisdom of allowing this is dubious but a separate issue) are all other things being equal going to have a significant disadvantage over those who typically come in at least near 230-or more.

Too many divisions likely.
Too many belts, & contenders or champs allowed to avoid each other to maintain rankings, that is not good for boxing or the public.
But even though most ATG HWs were around in the modern CW range, it is no longer most fair to the fighters to not give them a fair chance to dominate or be competitive with their own division.

Now I would also have a tournament where we at least informally divided the best HWs by size & the SHWs fought the "little guys".
It would create more of a rooting interest, having a say Povetkin HW facing someone more like 6'6" & near 250.

 

"Modern Heavy's"?...You mean guys with fat bellies hanging over the top of the trunks...and "man boobs"...sucking wind after 3 rounds of "action?" No...he didn't...

 

I'd make Archie Moore the favourite over the big roided out Evander Holyfield of the 90s.