Ali. He has 5 wins better than any Joe Louis win. Liston x2, Frazier x2, and Foreman. He cleaned out his whole division twice. Louis never beat any high level fighters and lost to all of the HOF type talents of his era (Marciano, Charles, and Schmelling).
This is such a hard choice. I don't think Louis greatness is contestable, or up for debate. But Ali pulled off the impossible time and time and time again. Ali fought a very diverse pool of top talent during his career and time and time and time again he was able to adapt and over come. Fighting against, Out-Boxers, boxer-punchers, swarmers, sluggers. Both fighters, Ali and Louis had a unique style but could Louis handle Frazier's pressure? Could Louis handle and evade a beating from Foreman over the course of 8 rounds? Would Louis manage to stay away from Liston's left jab and his power shots? Louis was maybe the most complete champion to ever have reigned based on skill, his fantastic ability in every area of the game. But Ali is sublime. Many of his wins defied odds and expectations. I don't think the same can be said for Louis. I don't see any foe on Louis resume that Ali wouldn't have a 50/50 chance of beating, and I think Ali would cruise through many of the fighters in Louis resume.
They are both in a class apart from every other heavyweight. You can argue it either way, depending upon your criteria. If you want to push the argument towards Ali, then you double down on the superiority of his best opponents, and point out that he tied Louis on every other metric. If you want to push the argument towards Louis, then you point out that his losses were further from his prime, and question the superiority of his best opponents. I tend to vote for Louis, because that is the minority opinion. In practice I have a 1A and a 1B, a bit like James Corbett.
Ali caught some of his opponents in favorable circumstances during his first reign. Second reign, he was never able to cement himself as dominant. He pulled wins out, but didn't stand head and shoulders above his competitors like he used to. Louis just obliterated everybody after he hit his stride. He did it in a huge pool of competitors desperate to win the Depression boxing sweepstakes. Ali's opponents were arguably better in the imaginary "head to head" sense. But this is irrelevant. So Louis.
Agreed, now about H2H. A lot of the reasoning behind Ali's guys being "H2H" better is because they made Ali struggle so they must be great and Ali beat them so Ali must be great. Norton is literally the epidemy of this. Foreman was one of the few guys at the highest level in the mid 70s Ali did dominate which I find funny. Norton, nope, Lyle, nope, Frazier, nope. I'd call Charles and Walcott a bigger threat then Lyle, Norton and Foreman to Ali for example does that mean they're H2H superior?
But...Louis got up to win every time, right? Ali got dropped by Cooper and Banks so where do these guys fit in?
Getting knocked down in fights you win by knockout > Losing fights. Also: Cooper. Louis was occasionally knocked down by ranked contenders. It happens. He also clubbed his division like baby seals.
I was referring to Ali's second reign because of this comment "Second reign, he was never able to cement himself as dominant. He pulled wins out, but didn't stand head and shoulders above his competitors like he used to." So Cooper isn't relevant here.
I was referring to his second reign because of this part "Second reign, he was never able to cement himself as dominant. He pulled wins out, but didn't stand head and shoulders above his competitors like he used to."
He was knocked down for like what 4 seconds combined in both? Louis shoved the ref out of the way in the Galento bout and sent Tony to another dimension. In the Baer bout he got up and resumed the program as usual. He got knocked down for a few seconds by powerful, wild swinging guys, it means nothing. Ali unlike Louis had a rep for his chin because he got hit so damn often.
Ali defeated 3 fighters on almost anyone's top 10-15 heavyweights in history in Foreman , Frazier and Liston . The competition advantages for Ali isn't close to debatable if one is being honest. Than factor in some of the hardest punchers in boxing history. Williams, Shavers, Lyle, Liston, Foreman, Frazier Then, factor in some heavyweights most would consider very good. At the least, possibly semi great ( If their is so a thing) Patterson, Norton, Terrell, Mathis Sr. Joe Louis is the greatest offensive heavyweight in boxing history. But he was dropped by fighters that does leave a very big question mark about his ability to take a great shot. And please stop with the nonsense about well he got up and won. Yes he did,,,, all but once...... In his prime he was K'oed by Schmeling. Sure he got his revenge, but should that have happened in the 1st place? Ali was dropped, true, but not when he was in his prime after he won the championship. I love Louis but his resume doesn't come close to Ali's. In fact, in my opinion, 3 of Ali's opponents, Foreman, Liston and Frazier beat Louis prime vs prime. None, not one of Louis's opponents in his prime get past 10rds against Ali.
