Sonny Liston vs Oleksandr Usyk

But we have no evidence that any 180 pound man could do that to Usyk. None. You can have any feelings you want, but they don't count as arguments.

 

I think Liston handles him in short order

 

Its not meaningless, and its not meaningless regardless of how often you say it. Liston was hurt against a 180 pound man, and most of his best competition was well under 200. Thus, your contention that Usyk's record doesn't count is ridiculous. Usyk's opponents to Liston's are apples to apples, with Usyk having beaten the head-to-head best of either in Joshua.

 

Wow. Great post.

I haven’t been as sold on Usyk as most either but I held judgment since I hadn’t seen all his work and figured I might’ve been missing some things.

However, I watched some more of his fights in recent times including a rewatch vs AJ also.

True, Joshua isn’t so hot as a boxer IMO and he had already been levelled so there was impairment to his confidence also which in turn doused his aggression.

And Usyk had to utilise everything he had to win the decision. Was it a PB performance? Perhaps.

Usyk is an excellent fighter but perhaps given the current crop, particularly at HW, he’s looking that much better than he actually is - the division not used to seeing such decent quality in a good many years.

There is a tendency toward premature coronations before the full evidence is in - especially when a fighter moves into a less than ideally talented division and shines by way of relative skill advantages. Starved fans (if they’re old enough to know they’re starved, LOL) may well overreact to a fighter who is simply excellent but not necessarily great.

One of the worst cases of extrapolating future or imagined successes at HW were those that pivoted on Jones’ single defeat of John Ruiz at HW - the unrealistic advantages people gave Roy at HW for that victory were insane - Ruiz was the worst barometer for future successes in the division.

 

Liston was an old man vs Martin, and subject to addictions and general hard living. Even so, he was beating Martin handily until he showed mid fight decline, as aged fighters in disrepair often do. And if Usyk was caught with the exact same shots, there’s no proof that he would survive same.


Also, Schmeling didn’t break Louis’ jaw - though it was well swollen - that’s a naughty Orange in the Apple cart.

Ali was screwing around, trying to drag it out with Cooper, to marry up to his prediction. 184 lb or not, has anyone landed as cleanly and as hard on Usyk? - that’s if we’re also comparing chins.

Additionally, am I wrong but has Usky not been dropped by a few body shots and stunned several times as a Cruiser?

Suffice to say, Liston was a great body puncher - even in Miami, Dundee attested to the welts on Ali’s body - but Ali’s core was well conditioned and highly resistant - Ken Norton said it was like punching a slab of concrete - and that’s the older, post exile Ali.

Not sure if you’re only focusing on a lower weight Liston - but even when older, Sonny clearly outboxed and was still able to TKO a strapping, very durable, 6’3”, 220 lb’r in Henry Clark whose record was quite decent as at the time.

 

Liston was officially 39 for the fight, Usyk is 35 now, moving up in weight class and defeating a two-time champ.

I've read in multiple sources that he broke it...again, has nothing to do with the grater point. Maybe he just swoll it up real bad...what different does it make?

Completely irrelevant. You own what you do in the ring, and there is no evidence that any 190 pound man could do that to Usyk under any circumstances.

You are wrong.

Is there are point in this?

And Henry Clark is not as good as Anthony Joshua.

So we begin where we started: Usyk and Liston's wins are apples to apples, considering that most of Liston's best were well under 200 when he beat them, and Usyk beat the best big man of either in Joshua.

 

Martin was not only a decent heavyweight. He was a rated contender, Liston's old sparring partner, who shared drugs and hookers with him, and quite literally killed a man in the ring.

He also appeared in the ring's top 100 punchers, higher than any Liston opponent except Cleveland Williams in that list.

 

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You have a hundred years of boxing film as evidence. Go watch Bob Satterfield knock out 220 pound men. Marciano? Dempsey? Usyk is not invincible and history has shown smaller men can knock out bigger ones. That being said Usyk has one hell of a chin.

 

The point is that Usyk was probably just as strong as Liston, Liston people mostly under 200lbs, Usyk when he tough at Crusierweight, his opponents would’ve been 210lbs or more on average, so my point was, anyone thinking Liston had an advantage in strength, that he probably didn’t, the only advantage he would have is punching power
‘The suspicious substance’ I don’t know what Ali or his trainer said, but something was clearly bothering him in that round, he was running around, not throwing any punches, backing into the ropes, rubbing his eyes, and he hadn’t been hit clean prior to that round, and he caught quite a few punches too in the round whereas Liston couldn’t land a glove prior to that, it’s not completely dismissible that you could get away with that back then, officiating and procedures weren’t as professional back then, if Margarito and are to can get away with putting solid in their hand wraps/gloves far more recently, then they certainly could get away with sneaking in a liquid

 

"Usyk was probably just as strong as Liston?" I kinda stopped right there, a guy named George Foreman said Sonny was the strongest man he was ever in the ring . But, maybe George didn't know much about heavyweight strength eh?

 

What does that mean in the grand scheme of things? Foreman never shared a ring with Usyk, + Foreman said he was the only man to back him up, that was probably with punching power, not strength, Usyk is like 10x heavier than Liston, there is no proof that Liston was stronger than Usyk, Liston bullied men much smaller than himself or scared men who weren’t top level

 

Dude just stop

 

OK. Fair enough, so are we also holding Ali's losses to Berbick and Holmes against him? Tyson's to Williams and McBride? Frazier's performance against Cummings?

Regarding Liston being hurt by a 180 pound man in his 7th pro fight when he was said to be caught laughing? What does that mean in the grand scheme of things? That anyone that size or bigger who was as good or better than Marshall could hurt him? You should've been in Floyd's corner for his two bouts with Liston. We would've had a completely different outcome.

 

Please stop.

This isn't even remotely true. He fought 0 opponents who were more than 210 at cruiser.

Don't even know how to reply to this. You just sound like a fanboy. Liston's strength is well documented. Foreman stated an older Liston backed him up, and bullied him around the ring. Would Usyk be able to do so?

The more you post, the more your lack of knowledge seeps through. "Liston couldn't land a glove prior to that" Really? Why were they dead even on the scorecards?

As for the substance that blinded Ali, I don't know what it was. It might've been something used for Liston's cuts, that got in Ali's eyes during a clinch or something.

Your claim that it happened to Cleveland Williams is unsubstantiated bull****. Find me one source where Williams makes such a claim or anywhere on film where it's evident that he's having vision issues.