Why should we believe Sonny Liston's jab was more damaging than Holmes's jab or Buster Douglas's?

For what it's worth, I recall Ali saying that Sonny had the hardest jab of all time in his autobiography. I would appreciate it if someone could verify this, though. Obviously, Ali fought both Liston and Holmes, but he isn't the most reliable source and is likely somewhat biased towards Liston.

I haven't seen Holmes or Douglas inflict the same amount of damage that Liston inflicted on Wepner's face. Wepner had a broken nose, a broken left cheekbone and wound up with 71 stitches. I would assume most of this damage came from Liston's jab since he threw it so frequently. Looking at the rounds we have with footage, he connected almost at will with his jab. Wepner was a well-known bleeder, but the amount of damage Liston dealt was absurd. Wepner states in his best I faced interview: "He threw it right from the shoulder, it was short, and he had everything behind it. That’s why it was a hard punch to get away from. I really didn’t get away from it too good. I wound up with 71 stiches, a broken nose and broken left cheekbone. Most of it was [from] the jab".

Liston's jab also passes the eye test with flying colors for me. Liston's jab looks heavy, and he puts all his weight into it. Liston takes a bigger and steeper step forward with his jab than most boxers and extends his arm fully. However, this technique seems somewhat risky since he steps into the punch so hard that he is left out of balance if he misses. It reminds me of Jack Dempsey's drop step technique or "left jolt" that he explains in Championship Fighting. Liston catches himself from falling with his opponent's face, which gives the shot more power.

Liston also knocked down Billy Joiner with his jab, but Joiner wasn't that good, and he had been staggered before. Joiner doesn't belong in the criteria you mentioned, but it should still be noted.

Most people consider Liston a much harder puncher than Holmes or Douglas, but that doesn't automatically make his jab harder. Just throwing it out there.

We can't "prove" that Liston's jab was harder since we don't have any tools to measure it accurately, but I think it's more than reasonable to assume that Liston's jab was at least a bit harder. But that's just my 2 cents.

 

Interesting thing about Joiner is he is one of the very few opponents who fought both Liston and Holmes, and he said an older Liston (though compared to a younger Holmes) had the much better jab in an interview he did here.

Billy Joiner: Well, I won the National Golden Gloves in 1962. I started my pro career in 1963. For the first match with Liston I wasn't at home training like I was supposed to. I was training, but I went to New York to train. The accommodations, my meals, and everything weren't right. So that had some bearing on the fight. I had sparred with Liston before I fought him, though. I knew what I had to do in order to survive (We both smile and laugh loudly). Liston was a good fighter. He was a great fighter, and a very strong fighter. I came in at about 195 pounds. Liston was something that it was survival for me back then, and the chance to make a little money. In the second fight, I was home training. I was more relaxed. My Dad was there, and that made a big difference.

Question: You fought Larry Holmes in 1975 when he was starting to come up the ranks (Billy was 37 at the time of that fight). Who had the better jab: Liston or Holmes?

Billy Joiner: Oh, no doubt. Liston. If I had two weeks to train for Holmes, I would've beaten him. I hadn't been in the gym in a year. I got a call right before Christmas, and was asked if I wanted to go to Puerto Rico. I had four kids, and I didn't know anything about Holmes. So I went. I jumped on him right from the beginning. I wasn't in condition. But no, there really wasn't a comparison between him at that time and Liston at the time I fought him. Liston was much stronger than Holmes. I could walk right through Holmes, but I got tired. Had I been in condition, it wouldn't have been a contest for that particular fight.

Question: Holmes kind of threw a rising up jab (I motion from the waist upward), whereas Liston threw a straight, telephone pole-like jab.

Billy Joiner: Right.

Question: How did you defend differently against the different types of jabs?

Billy Joiner: Holmes hadn't really seasoned yet at that time in his career. So, I would just walk right through him. Liston was different. His jab was like getting hit with another man’s right hand. My head was red.

Question: Liston had an 84" reach. Was the reach that big of a factor with him?

Billy Joiner: It's a difference if you know what you're doing. He knew what he was doing, so I couldn't really get close to him like I wanted to.

Question: Of all of the guys you fought in your career: Zora Folley, Holmes, Blue Lewis, Liston, etc.--- who was the best guy you faced?

Billy Joiner: It was Liston. Liston was the toughest guy.

 

I had no idea Joiner had actually fought Holmes, let alone that Joiner gave an interview where he compares Liston's and Holmes' jabs. Thank you for mentioning it. This makes the case even stronger.

 

I think Liston's jab had more parallels to Foreman than to Holmes'. Sonny didn't have the fastest jab, but it was surprisingly accurate despite its speed and had a lot of....for want of a better word, length to it (beyond Liston's already superior reach). He stepped way into it most of the time, so that it was almost like a wrestling clothesline lol! Foreman's seemed to draw more from upper body strength, and was slower and perhaps even heavier. I feel George's jab should be mentioned in the same breath as the other two in this post, as it was way more responsible for helping him win fights than many people think, and was a top 5 ATG jab in the heavies imo.

Larry's jab was like Ali's as far as relatively similar speed and accuracy, except it was markedly heavier, and he relied on it even more than Muhammad (and probably Liston).

I suppose some might say Liston didn't need to rely on the jab quite as much as Holmes because he also had the big punches, and there's some truth there.

For overall effectiveness...the variables stated above make that hard for me to make a firm decision on.

Douglas' Tokyo jab to me was like a second rate version of 1980 Holmes, which was more than effective enough to beat an unmotivated Tyson.

 

Not necessarily, but one thing I've always heard about Liston that I don't hear much about other fighters is how big his hands were...
I don't know about Holmes, he had a great jab and all but I think buster may be could get a little more leverage behind his jab

 

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Shavers said Holmes had a "hard powerful jab". In another interview he said that the difference between Ali and Holmes jabs is that Ali's was more like a whip while Holmes also had a whip like motion but had more weight to it and could stop you dead in your tracks.

Liston also had a very powerful jab and nobody ever walked through his either.

I think the main difference is punching mechanics. Liston throw his straight and right down the middle, like a power punch. Holmes punched up from the waist and was often on his toes or being elusive while throwing his jab. Thus even if Holmes jab had comparable power, due to technique, he probably wasn't hitting his opponent as hard as Liston who was trying to take your head off with each jab and set up brutal combinations.

Liston was more bludgeoning puncher in general while Holmes was a sharp puncher landing (needing to land lots of shots to take guys out).

 

Liston had more 'pole jab" and less 'whipping "" of jab. probable superior powerful but Holmes also did had powerful & pole/whip.
Douglas had great jab sometimes sometimes not so great.

lot of heavy fighter have the heavy jab. this is unsurprise .

 

Excellent question again.
Holmes jab of course, has been mentioned numerous times. It's one of the greatest jabs of any heavyweight champ. Even Ali.
Holmes jab was more of a weapon as opposed to Ali's which disrupt opposition.
Busters jab was unbelievable against Tyson. True, this wasn't the defensive Tyson of a couple of years ago.
But it still nailed him time after time and closed his eye and set him up for the ko.

Liston s jab was formidable again and in action we can see how accurate and fast it was. Even though some say his shots weren't that fast I actually disagree.
Yes against Ali he may have looked average, but it was Ali s time. Liston had no chance.
I think in all honesty, that Holmes jab is easily just as good as Sonny s, maybe Liston was more power behind his?
Buster proved again against Tyson, he had a great jab.
But we never really hear how he dominated guys with it, perhaps because Tokyo eclips all?

 

I think it was Angelo Dundee who said Liston had the only jab he'd ever seen that could knock teeth out.

 

I used to have a book about the heavyweight champions that was written when Liston was champion. I'm guessing that, by the time it was printed Ali had become champion because there was about 4 paragraphs about him on the last page. In that book it was the opinion of the writer that Liston had the best heavyweight jab since Gene Tunney, edging ahead of Joe Louis.
I also read about a boxing writer that was watching an Ali fight in the 60s with James Braddock. When he praised Ali's jab, Braddock scoffed at it then hit the writer with a jab to the shoulder and knocked him off his barstool. He explained that to throw a real jab you have to get your shoulder into it.
Larry didn't always get his shoulder into his jab, though he certainly could when he decided to use it in that way.

 

I think one of the best things about Larry's jab involved how he mixed velocities on it. Sometimes he'd sacrifice the step-in to get really fast and whipping, sometimes just to give the opponent a false sense of security "he can't hurt me".

I think a remarkable demonstration of this versatility is showcased during the Berbick fight.

 

There is a story that Ray Arcel, in a hotel room, showed Larry 21 different ways to use the jab.

 

Was going to mention this, I remember Dundee called Liston a "man eater" and he would "knock guys teeth out with a jab", sounds like it may have happened more than once. If I saw that jab coming @ me, I'd be like