Liston vs Clay/Ali Fixed?

Also their initial rematch was scheduled for Nov 16 1964, but on Nov 13 1964, Muhammad Ali was rushed to Boston City Hospital for emergency surgery for Inguinal Hernia. The surgery took 90 minutes, it may have been congenital, Ali was not allowed to start training for a while, Boston pulled out of the rescheduled rematch set for May 25 1965, Lewiston, Maine became the choice.

 

If he said that he is lying. Look at the replay, he was up and fighting with Ali when Walcott stopped it.


The fight was worked in that people involved made money by claiming something was up.


The reality was Liston was caught with a punch went down; Walcott took forever to get Ali to a corner. Liston got up and the fight started again. Nat Fleischer was screaming at Walcott; Walcott went over to talk to Nat while Liston and Ali carried on fighting, Joe came back and stopped the fight with both on their feet.


The problem was the inexperienced (as a ref of top level fights) Walcott and limited TV cameras as the 'arena' was so small...

 

Sure, I hear you but as I said, he did beckon Liston to get up and then, before 10 secs was even up - maybe with Liston on the deck for a "real" 6-7 seconds, Ali then chose to preemptively dance around both the ring and Liston with his arms raised. IIRC, Ali was coming around for his second "victory" lap at the moment Liston was propped up on one arm, appearing to attempt to rise (possibly fake attempt) but right then, Liston just let himself fall back down again with Ali heading back. Though Ali might've done something similar vs Williams and Bonavena (Ali wasn't silly - he framed himself for great photo opps as the pictures later revealed) but it wasn't exactly the same - and besides, usual behaviour or not, Ali was wrong standing over Bonavena the way he did (which could delay any fighter from rising lest they be hit on the way up). Ali also slapped down the ref's restraining arm to get at Bonavena after the 2nd KD - a big no no but he got away with that also.

 

I think Muhammad Ali was angered by Oscar Ringo Bonavena's comments at the pre fight press conference. Oscar asked Ali why he did not join the army? Then Oscar retorted Chicken Clay, Peep Peep Peep. Ali replied that he would show him at the fight. Ali did not like to be referred to by his old name, he took it as a sign of disrespect. It is like calling the late Tony Curtis by his former name of Anthony Shwartz. Ali was very prideful of his religious beliefs.

 

Yeah, and didn't Oscar B. also say or imply that Ali was gay? That barb was always going to get the goat of The GOAT. Don't kill me Rich - but I think Curtis' real name was Bernie Schwartz. He also went by the name Stoney Curtis in The Flinstones, alongside Cary Granite and Anne Margrock.

 

No I would not kill you, you are right, Bernard Shwartz was Tony Curtis's real name. I remember those names on The Flintstones, also Bewitched (Elizabeth Montgomery) appeared as a cartoon on the show. The Rock and Roll group The Beau Brummels appeared in an episode in 1965, singing their big hit. Laugh, Laugh on The Flintstones, they came out as The Brummelstones.

 

How I see it as well, word for word.

The way he quit, imo, in the rematch strengthens my belief that he quit in the first too. Yes, I think he had a legitimate issue with his shoulder, but I think the main reason was that he felt that he couldn't win and probably would be stopped as predicted by Ali. He preferred using his bad shoulder as a reason for quitting.

In the rematch it was clear that the gulf in speed had widened and all he had to look forward to was being outclassed and eventually stopped, so he used the flash knockdown as an opportunity to stay down. It wouldn't have worked if Walcott hadn't screwed up, though.

 

LOL. I know you wouldn't kill me Rich, beat me up maybe to within an inch, but never kill me.

 

Foneda Cox Liston's close friend and sparring partner said Sonny took a dive,after the fight Cox said ,"why didn't you let me in on it I lost money bettin on you?Sonny replied,"with your big mouth we'd both be wearing cement boots."

 

Fight #1 was legit
Fight #2 was a fix. Either it was the Muslims or the Mafia but it was a fix. The mafia killed Sonny Liston also cause he did not do heroin and was scared to death of needles. He was in a lot better shape for the 2nd fights original date so I believe if the 2nd fight goes off on the original date there is no fix on. But something happened between the postponement…… U didn’t screw around with the mafia back in there heyday. Ali would have taken a dive if the mafia would have told him to. Or he would be with Jimmy Hoffa right now!

 

I don’t think either fight was fixed.

I think both were quit jobs on Sonny’s part.

In the first he gave it his all and probably had some legit but obviously not debilitating shoulder injury but saw where the fight was going and didn’t want to get stopped.

The second fight he saw quickly that Ali’s footwork and speed were going to be too much for him. The flash knockdown was legit and he just decided what’s the point and wanted to get counted out. Walcott being in a situation where he had no experience and no business just made it look foolish.

If the mob wanted to fix the first fight, it would have made a lot more sense to fight someone they controlled. Or not fix it if they thought Sonny would win (apparently most did) and let him drop it to someone with longer odds who they controlled next time out.

The big thing about the mob fixing fights at this point in time is … who were they betting with? If the mob controlled gambling and they put a big wager on the outcome, it’s just a transferral of money from one mob operation to the other. If it came out that it was a fix, you get mob warfare (the family who placed the bet vs. the one they fleeced that took the bet).

Someone has to explain that dynamic better to me. And it they controlled Sonny, who figured at this point to be a dominant champ (KO’d Floyd twice in one round apiece and had cleaned out the division pretty much before that, so who’s going to take it from him anytime soon), it would seem to me to need a massively huge payoff (millions) thus huge sums of money bet to make it worth their while. Seems like incredibly massive wagers on the underdog would have raised some reg flags with whoever is taking those bets, and would also have moved the odds.

 

That punch did not hurt Liston

 

Or that!

 

Saintpat, I heard that there was no way that the underworld could have had a hand in fixing that fight despite what I was told by my co-worker who arrested Sonny Liston for assault in my hometown in Sept 1969. Muhammad Ali was well protected by the Nation Of Islam, many were at ringside that night. Both the underworld and the Nation Of Islam did not want any attention from local Law Enforcement or the FBI.

 

In my opinion, Liston’s reaction following the 2nd fight knockdown didn’t show me a man off his feet. He looked like he had his wits, and didn’t even look hurt. I have no doubt he had been rocked way worse in street fights with no gloves without going down.