I was thinking about this after a thread on the general I read. People often say that Robinson can't be surpassed (wherever you rate him, that isn't the point of the thread) because fighters don't fight often enough now. But I disagree. I think the following fighters have had the career opportunity to be in the Goat conversation: Duran, Holyfield, Jones, Pacquiao I think all of those men, had they won every fight then had in real life, would have a resume to put them right in the Goat conversation. Do people agree with those 4 names? Any others who had the opportunity to be up there?
If those guys won every fight they'd definitely be in the conversation. If Duran stayed unbeaten, adding SRL x2, Thomas Hearns, Hagler, Macho to his resume it would be a no brainer IMO. But the one I'd be most curious about is if Ali was not out of action from 67 to 70. He'd have fought guys like Frazier and Foreman probably a bit too early for them to trouble him. Probably could have got to 70+ bouts too which is plenty for a HW
Ali is interesting one no doubt. Had he beaten Frazier, Norton, Holmes and Berbick I think people would be arguing him up there definitely.
I think Rummey nailed something in his video, most of the guys that maybe could did not compete in an era where having 200 fights against so many contenders and champions is possible. Robinson was also popular enough that many wanted the payday to fight him. Its a unique series of combinations. If Holyfield won every fight he was in he would be the greatest heavy of all time. I say that confidently he would of retired at 57-0 beating Bowe 3X, Lewis 2X, Mercer, Tyson 2X, Valuev, Ruiz 3X, Toney, Byrd etc and holding the heavy title for like 20ish years. Best fighter ever he may be in the conversation James Toney going something like 98-0 beating Jones looks pretty good too. Chavez if he goes unbeaten would be in the conversation, besting ODLH 2X and when long past it beating Tszyu. Emile Griffith going 112-0 with his competition would have to be in consideration. Duran obviously is another one that may be the best ever beating everyone he faced (including hearns, hagler, Leonard 3x, hell even Joppy in the mid 90s)
Duran, during his prime, was in talks (using that word loosely, as somethings would've needed to happen differently for them to come off) with Arguello, Cervantes, Arguello and Pryor. Had he beaten them, and not quit against Leonard - literally losing a shut out would've been better - and retired after; I'd say he'd have enough of a claim and few enough blemishes to have overtaken Robinson. Just imagine Duran's resume if he swapped Barkley, Moore and Cuevas for Arguello, Cervantes, Pryor and Benitez.
Oscar De La Hoya would be in the conversation. His resume w wins over Hopkins, Floyd, Mosley, Pacquiao, and (officially) Tito would be insane.
No, Duran was better for having a redemption story. Your scenario is soulless, he would have gone down as some sort of machine, lacking a connection with the fancy and would thus be generally rated worse than he is now.
I know there are people on this forum who rate Charles above Robinson. Personally, I don’t see it. Yes, Charles was an incredible light heavyweight but not more incredible than Robinson was a welterweight. He was also a very good/great heavyweight but not greater than Robinson was a middleweight. H2H is a non-starter as Charles started his career as a middleweight at the same time Robinson started his as a lightweight. I respect the hell out of Charles and his accomplishments but as exact contemporaries, no-one watching that era ever considered Charles as great a fighter as Robinson. And while opinions on fighters can and do change over time, I still think it’s a stretch to rate him above Sugar Ray.
I think there’s a question of how much people value pure resumé and how much people value an unbeaten record. The arguments here are obviously hypothetical but Robinson was 128-1-1 in his first 10 or so years as a pro. In comparison, Duran went 72-1 during his first 13 years. Chavez famously made it to 87-0 and 89-0-1 after 13 years as a pro and before his first defeat(s). But they did lose, just as Robinson did once he passed his peak. So that’s a bit of a moot point. I think in terms of numbers it’s going to be nigh on impossible to match Sugar Ray. In terms of resumé, I think it’d have been possible if some of those fighters mentioned had won all those fights against their best opposition. I’m pretty sure that’s the reason some already rate Charles above Robinson - on the strength of the opposition and those signature wins. However, I think it’s a rare combination of great resumé plus incredible winning/unbeaten streak combined with the fact that Robinson looks as great on film as his record suggests that puts him where he is - as most people’s choice as the greatest of all time. That’s a hard combo to overcome.