I too believe he was better than some people think, looking at that footage I'd say he's no where near the bottom of the list of heavyweight champs in history. I like to see him with the 280 pound Andy Ruiz over 15 rounds
Yes it is ,and its only my opinion. I think Sharkey took a dive, I think both Stribling fights were fixed,I think Godfrey fouled out deliberately,I think Schaaf was a fatal accident waiting to happen.can I prove it ? No. I can't prove Liston went into the tank in the 2nd Ali fight but I believe he did. I'm not asking others to agree with me ,those are just my own personal observations. We do know Peterson,Clark ,Rioux, and Chevalier went for a swim.
But if the 30% of straight fights were the ones that got him rated, so what? Most champion’s are matched to win at least 70% of their career. It’s the same thing isn’t it? what interests me is the Walter Neusel fight. Now Walter was a legit contender and Primo beats him AFTER the Joe Louis fight. There was no mileage in Carnera winning that fight at that point of his career. He’d already lost the title and been demolished by Joe Louis. Bud Schulbergs novel about the giant fraud describes the giant being exposed losing the title. Soon as they stop fixing fights he can’t win. But primo won a meaningful fight after losing the title. Go figure.
Why should Bud Schulberg “ought to know”? Bud was a teenage son of a successful Hollywood producer during Carneras career. He was still in college…and was no boxing insider during the 1930s. The Harder They Fall was a work of fiction.wriiten in 1947. It’s a novel.
Leon See only said that once he and Carnera had a falling out over money and other issues that See brought on himself. The same Leon See several years earlier prevailed in Court over several commissions including the California Commission, who suspended Carnera after his fight against Chevalier without giving Carnera a hearing, which was a violation of the National Boxing Association's rules. Chevalier claimed he was threatened to take a fall, but was unwilling to say the same under oath and Chevalier wasn't the most credible person anyway considering the stuff he and his wife were involved in. Also, Several state commissions withdrew from the NBA over Carnera and continued to allow Carnera to fight in their states, since they felt Carnera was entitled to a hearing and that the National Boxing Association overstepped when they banned Carnera nationally without giving Carnera a hearing. Here is an example of a State Athletic Commission withdrawing from the National Boxing Association after Carnera was suspended without a hearing. This story involves the Nebraska State Athletic Commission, but several followed after Nebraska and left the N.B.A. Nebraska Commission Charges Unfair Treatment of Italian The Nebraska Athletic Commission's resignation from the National Boxing association, in protest against "unfair treatment" of Primo Carnera, today furnished additional evidence that organizations regulating boxing are incapable of-or uninterested in-protecting the interests of the public which supports the tour. Primo's "set-up tour" with its charges was made possible by the leniency of various commissions which approved of notorious "tankers" as opponents for the giant Italian. Despite Carnera's conviction on charges of engaging in a fixed bout in California and his subsequent national suspension, he has been allowed to continue fighting. Now that he is faced with deportation because the labor department has taken cognizance of the unsavory scandals in connection with his tour, boxing organizations, and promoters are joining politicians in the clamor of protest. Within the last week the N.B.A. and the Illinois boxing commission have lifted their "life" suspensions on Carnera. Previously Primo had been allowed to fight in Michigan, Nebraska, Pennsylvania and several other states despite his suspension. In at least one instance, his bout with Godfrey at Philadelphia - waiving of the suspension gave boxing another black eye and brought further charges of "fixing". Mique Mallow, Chicago promoter, used all of his boasted "influence" to have the Carnera suspension lifted in Illinois. Mique has cabled Mussolini asking the Italian dictator to intervene with the United States government in Primo's favor. He has received no answer and now threatens to follow the Nebraska example and withdraw from the Fascisti in protest of "unfair treatment" to Primo. https://imgur.com/Sk78zRW Also, a lot of speculation on your part to assume 30% of Carnera's fights were fixed when no evidence was ever produced to prove any of Carnera's fights were fixed. Here is a piece by Dan Parker where he gives concrete examples of how suspensions given out by Athletic Commissions often don't hold up to scrutiny and should be taken with a grain of salt. NO CHAMELEON EVER CHANGED colors more rapidly than the New York State Athletic Commission. No kaleidoscope presented many different patterns with every movement of the box. New England climate is the most consistent thing in the world compared with our boxing salons. Herewith are a few samples of the good old Commission's handiwork. SUBJECT NO. 1 -PRIMO CARNERA The Commission suspends Primo, stating it never will reinstate him until he is restored to good standing in California. .....Though California still has Primo under ban, New York reinstated him on condition that he take on a real opponent. The real opponent turns out to be Pat Redmond, the Helpless Hibernian.... Commission, after putting the o.k. on a bout between Primo and Umberto Torriano which ends up smelling from Provolone, warns Primo that hereafter he will be permitted to fight only first-class opponents, whose names must first be submitted to the Commission for approval... The Commission thereupon approves a bout between Primo and... Phew! SUBJECT NO. 2- MICKEY WALKER Mickey and his manager, Jack Kearns, have laughed at the Commission for years, refusing to accept opponents named by the solons or to put the middleweight title on the block... When Mickey is ballyhooed for a bout with Sharkey, the Commission relents and reinstates him...Then it approves of the match, although it had to violate its strict rule regarding weight disparity to do so. Mickey isn't even a legitimate light heavyweight, much less a heavyweight... The dukes call Kearns into their august presence after the bout and heap praise upon him in return for all the sour notices he has given them. He must control a Democratic ward. SUBJECT NO. 3 - PETROLLE VS. KING TUT Commission is informed before these boys enter the ring that the bout is in the satchel and is to end in a kayo victory for Petrolle in the fourth round. Bout lives up to predictions and Commission announces privately to a newspapermen that neither boxer will ever be permitted to fight here again. Two weeks later Petrolle-McLarnin bout is approved and, I presume King Tut will be back with us as soon as he shakes off the effects of his appendix operation. It's all o.k. by way of discriminating against Benny Bass and Phil Glassman, a couple of guys who would no more think of mixing up in anything off color than Tod Morgan and Frank Churchill! SUBJECT NO. 4 - SUSPENSIONS AND ELIGIBILITY The Commission's books are heavy with rules which are more ornamented than the 18th Amendment. For instance, felons aren't supposed to hold licenses but the Commission has more jolly good felons on its hands than all the laundry maids in America. There's a rule which says a suspended boxer or manager must be barred from all fight clubs. Yet you can't attend a fight without stumbling over one or two in the very first row. However, a four-round preliminary boy who had the temerity to smoke in the presence of the Duke of Muldoon is summarily suspended. SUBJECT NO. 5 - MAX SCHMELING This young man was suspended for telling the Commission to go fly a kite when it ordered him to box Phil Scott. The next year he came back, was forgiven, fought Sharkey, was fouled and awarded the heavyweight championship. When the Commission ordered him to meet Sharkey in a return bout he thumbed his nose at them once more and was suspended again. He'll probably be back again next year, forgiven and all ready to smack the Dukes on the other cheek. SUBjECT N. 6 - AMATEUR BOXING The Commission is prepared to take control of amateur boxing, probably because its attempts to handle professional boxing have been so amateurish. SUBJECT NO. 7 - WEIGHING-IN PICTURES A rule was passed ordering all boxers to weigh in at the club before which they are to perform. A few weeks laterm however, probably at the instigation of Bashful Bertie Stand, Dan Skilling and General Phelan, this rule was revoked and the boxers ordered to weigh in at the boxing Commission offices wehre the Three Flash-light Facers, Bertie, Dan and the General, could fight it out for places in the first row. SUBECT NO. 6 - OVERWEIGHT BOUTS Permission to fight opponents outside his class was denied to Champion Maxie Rosenbloom but was given to Al Singer and Al Brown, two other champs. SUBJECT NO. 9 - Jimmy Maloney This fish-monging son-of-a-sea-cook was suspended because he did the Commission the biggest favor imaginable by meeting Primo Carnera, a suspended boxer, and showing him up completely. Yet Johnny Risko, who committed the same offense by fighting Mickey Walker, a suspended boxer, was allowed to meet Stanley Poreda here a few weeks later. (They're a comical lot, all right, but what would we have to write about if they acted sensibly?) https://imgur.com/eABcwil
If most of his fights were fixed, they were almost certainly fixed the way 95% of all fights today are 'fixed"; in the matchmaking. The huge majority of fights today are "fixed" in the sense that one guy is knowingly, by all parties involved, brought in to lose. That has always been the easiest way to fix a fight. Unless you watch too many movies and think that they were using "muscle" for prelim fights week after week.
Oh come on. I don't want to get into a another big argument about Carnera, but using The Harder They Fall as evidence about the real Carnera is like using Errol Flynn's They Died With Their Boots On as evidence about General Custer, or Gentleman Jim as evidence about Corbett. All are entertaining movies, but Hollywood fiction, and Hollywood has never been into historical accuracy. One thing I would say about Carnera and I think the evidence is strong for it. What quality of boxer he was to the side, Carnera came out of his career rather well off financially and not destitute as the negative Carnera legend has it. One can find his impressive home in Italy on the internet under "Villa Carnera"--he built this home in the 1930's. It appears he squirreled his money away in Italy and his US critics simply had no idea about these foreign investments.
As I said in an earlier post Neusel was not ranked.Neither was he very good. As soon as he was cut from an elbow, he flat out quit . No knockdowns -- Neusel cut in fourth and "retired" to his corner "Primo Carnera, trying for a comeback, emerged from the smoky haze of MSG last night with a TKO victory over Walter Neusel, the blond German heavyweight. Refusing to be floored under a barrage of ponderous, sweeping lefts, Neusel threw up his hands and quit in the 4th round after Carnera inflicted a deep cut over his eye with a massive flying elbow. As blood spurted from the cut, Neusel's seconds jumped into the ring with a towel, but he beat them to the draw, walking away from the grimacing Carnera to his corner. The first blow of any consequence in the initial round swept Neusel halfway across the ring and nearly through the ropes. From that first blow to the end, Carnera mussed up Neusel at will, grinning and wielding the troublesome left that had sweeping power but not enough jolt to deliver a knockout." -Associated Press Shulberg was Stribling's guest at the London Stribling v Carnera fight. How many fights did Carnera win after the mob discarded him? He was beaten up by also rans. 1936-03-06 268¼ Isidoro Gastanaga 208¼ 51 26 1 Madison Square Garden, New York W TKO 5/10 event bout wiki scores referee: Arthur Donovan Bout halted because of cuts, but NYSAC investigates whether it a fraud and whether in fact both fighters managed by Luis Sorisi. 1930-04-14 276 Leon Chevalier 216 22 10 4 Oaks Ballpark, Emeryville W TKO 6/10 event bout wiki scores referee: Toby Irwin One of Chevalier's seconds, Bob Perry, threw in the towel, although it appeared to all that the boxer was in no worse condition than Carnera. "A bitter demonstration followed. Half a dozen fans attacked Perry, striking and kicking him. In the melee he suffered a cut under the eye. Fellow countrymen of Carnera's stood on chairs and shouted 'fake' and urged the huge Italian be made to fight over again." (AP) The boxing commission started an immediate investigation. Mrs. Chevalier told them her husband had been approached earlier to agree to a "fake fight, " but that he had directed all business to his manager, Tim McGrath. McGrath declared he had no knowledge that Perry was going to throw in the towel, and that the towel should not have been thrown in. Carnera's purse was withheld.Attendance 10, 000 1930-01-31 269 Elzear Rioux 205¾ 40 16 4 Chicago Stadium, Chicago W KO 1/10 event bout wiki scores time: 0:47 | referee: Dave Barry | WA Battyle | Lee Cook Rioux down six times. After an investigation, the Illinois Boxing Commission cleared Carnera but fined Rioux, who was outweighed by 63 pounds, $1000 and revoked his license.(Deepak Nahar) Bob Soderman provided the report of the Chicago Tribune, which said "Rioux didn't do much fighting..being too intent on doing what he had been hired to do; that is, making sure he fell to the canvas at the slightest provocation." Only two of the six knockdowns appeared to be genuine. Rioux said that he had an "off night" and that his muscles wouldn't respond. Attendance 17, 500. Young Stribling 196 lbs lost to Primo Carnera 283 lbs by DQ in round 4 of 15 "); margin: 0px 0px 1rem; padding: 0px 0px 0px 3.5ex; color: rgb(33, 37, 41); font-family: Roboto, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"> Date: 1929-11-18 Location: Royal Albert Hall, Kensington, London, United Kingdom Both fighters down in the third. Carnera down from low blow in 4th. This bout was probably fixed. Stribling did have a bad reputation in Europe for "ungentlemanly conduct" 1930-01-24 269 Big Boy Peterson 209 46 24 7 Madison Square Garden, New York W KO 1/10 event bout wiki scores time: 1:10 | referee: Arthur Donovan "Peterson showed no inclination to fight. He dropped under a grazing left hook for a count of three to give the crowd its first thrill soon after the opening gong". He was down four times. New York Times Attendance: 17, 692 929-11-18 283 Young Stribling 195½ 226 12 17 Royal Albert Hall, Kensington W DQ 4/15 event bout wiki scores Both fighters down in the third. Carnera down from low blow in 4th. This bout was probably fixed.
See and Carnera did no fall out See always rooted for carnera the Mob sidelined See, Carnera had no say in it.
An unran Shulberg sparred all his life. He and his Father were regulars at the fights,he saw more fights from ringside over 70 years than you've had hot dinners.He was close friends with Stribling as was his Father they met on the Ile de France going to England,BP Shulberg Budd's Father bet$1000 on Stribling to beat Carnera.This is Budd's take ontheir London fight for which they had ringside seats courtesy of Stribling. "The ungainly stray from a small Italian circus had been awarded a most peculiar decision,claiming he had been hit low by what seemed to be an invisible punch.They repeated their act again a few weeks later in Paris,this time with Stribling winning on a foul.By now I had seen enough to learn one of the sad realities of the Sweet Scinece,every so often the fix was in." Shulberg as well as being a lifelong boxing fan and regular attendee at fights,also managed two boxers.Budd was in Muhammad Ali,Jose Torres ,and Floyd Patterson's dressing rooms at big fights,he was a boxing insider friends with, and respected for his knowledge by such as Hugh McIllvanney,George Kimball,W C Heinz ,AJ Leibling, and Mike Katz. You should one day learn half of what he knew about boxing!
