Liston v Marciano's Top Opposition?

I would pick both Rocky AND Liston to beat each other’s comp. The only exception would be Muhammad Ali who Sonny didn’t beat anyway

 

Think the real question should be is it Liston the champion or contender? Marciano was consistent throughout. Liston was not. I’ll just go with the best version of Liston and say contender. Champ Liston got lazy and partied to much.
I think Liston has massive troubles with both Walcott and Charles. I’d favor him but he has a serious chance of losing these. Style wise Charles really gives Liston fits. He said as much when he sparred him (I don’t put to much into that)

 

Lol Moore has one of the best HW records EVER. Seriously. He was 64-4 only losing to four HOF three of which was when he was over 38 and the other was a dirty punch. He beat the likes of
Nino Valdez x2
Bob Baker
Clarence Henry
Curtis Sheppard
Jimmy Slade
Jimmy Bivins x4
Joey Maxim x 3
Harold Johnson
And many more. One of the best heavy contenders to ever live

 

On the issue of size, moore was equal in weight to Patterson and Marciano…the two dominant champs of the decade.

If that’s the size of the dominant champions in the era he challenged for titles and he’s the same weight how can he be too small?

Liston was bigger than the dominant champions, but he was essentially a 1950s heavyweight during a time where the dominant champions were smaller than he was.

On the issue of age.. well let’s look at Archie’s record. Where were his best wins?

The record shows, officially, that Archie Moore recorded his very best wins, his career was no better, during the reign of Rocky Marciano.

So regardless of age, the record shows Archie was at the most outstanding point of his career at the time of his fight with Rocky.

 

The relevant word here is contender not rated in the top echelon of heavyweights of all time.One of the best ever light heavy weights but not at the higher weight.Marciano`s resume is very thin

 

The difference is Archie was not a natural heavyweight

 

Disagree whole heartedly. Moore one of the best ever at Hw and LHW

 

Fair play its your opinion but i disagree rate Archie as the best ever LHW but only a really good fighter at heavyweight

 

That's being discussed in another thread. Ali and Marciano sparred for many hours in 1968 Superfight. They developed a respect and friendship for each other. They both said that they think they could beat each other on their best days BUT MAYBE NOT- the other one could win it.
Ali also said that of all the champions, Marciano would give him the most trouble.

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He was for that decade. And that was when it counted.

heavyweights and lightheavyweights were interchangeable at that era. And probably the last decade that they were.

light heavyweight was hardly an exclusive division then. They all fought and beat heavyweights. The LH title then was literally within the heavyweight division itself. Open to heavyweights who could make 175. Being a LH just meant another type of heavyweight.

until modern advances in training, 190 was a natural heavyweight. 200 was really as big and as functional you could get as a fighter using the old methods of training and diet.

Beyond that you had giants who usually did not make the best fighters because they were more limited by the training and diet of that time than regular sized men.

 

They have such a different career trajectories that I find it very hard to imagine either way. Liston fought for a lot longer time, but he wasn't as active as Rocky. How can we adjust timeline for that?

I think the only problematic matchups for Liston would be Charles I, Walcott I and Moore.

Old Louis could and probably would outbox him for a while, but I don't think he had enough tank to go with Sonny for 15 rounds.

Walcott could be tricky, he was faster and more elusive than Liston. I can see him countering Liston a lot, but Liston had a good chin. At some point, I think Liston would land something big and he's too good of a finisher for Walcott to survive that.

I think Charles would beat Liston at his best, but he wasn't at his best in any of Rocky's fights. I stil think the first fight is 50/50 one, but the second one is a sure win for Liston, assuming he'd be in his pre-Ali II form.

Moore is also tricky and if the timeline gives him older Liston after Ali fights, then I'd favor Old Mongoose. Younger Liston would be a favorite, but Moore was tricky.

 

Liston wins all for mine.

 

If Sonny brings what he brought in two fights against Clay in Miami or Maine then Sonny loses two fights.

when Sonny was in shape and fighting regular he was a better fighter even as an older guy. But for the most part, I don’t think any of Sonny’s best opponents, who he beat, were anywhere as good on the nights he fought them as Charles, Walcott or Moore were when Rocky beat them.