Does it make any difference to you that Ali wasn't ktfo in the Holmes fight?

Ali certainly used the thyroid medication as a way of convincing himself that he would have had a chance against Holmes without it.

In reality, there was no way he could have beaten Holmes in 1980 but that doesn't alter the fact that thyrolar has serious side-effects and explains why Ali barely threw a punch in the entire fight.

 

he used it & it might have done side effect in fights this fight
but he was shot boxer & this explains everything

he barely threw punch for many several rounds in a lot matches after mid 1970s . just hold hands up take several many rounds to get off punch. tried to psyche his opponent. not surprisingly to see try this with Holmes & get stuck in it take beating like zombie

 

Ali wa completely gone due to parkinsons and Holmes just battered his head and arms.

 

Before the fight he said he’d knock him out, that’s pretty common preflight talk. I don’t know of any fighters that would say “I’m gonna start out with my best but will start to lay off if my opponent turns out to be completely overmatched.” Prior to the fight Holmes expected Ali to be more physically capable. In the ring he discovered that Ali was basically harmless to him and knew he had nothing left. Other than making a lot of money, it was a lose-lose situation for Holmes in terms of how he’d look to the public.

Larry started the fight seriously and treated Ali like he was live, but he settled in pretty quickly because he realized the Ali of old was gone. He was hitting Ali because it’s a fight and he needed to win, but he was doing it in a way to force a stoppage. Wasn’t loading up on all of his punches or sustaining the type of attack he’d use to try and put someone down. In my opinion there’s a pretty clear difference in what it looks like when Holmes is trying to put someone down with disregard for their health vs what he did with Ali. He could’ve stood in front of Ali winding up and throwing as hard as he could for entire rounds at a time. Instead he choose to consistently tattoo him and hit him with the occasional burst of punches.

As far as why he’d hold back, it doesn’t make sense to me that Holmes would only hold back because it’d look bad beating up a legend. The two were friends and Holmes didn’t want to hurt him badly. I’m hindsight it may have been more merciful for him to put him down as fast as possible, but that wasn’t something Holmes wanted to do. Everyone mentions how sad it would be to see Ali on the ground finished….I think Holmes agreed with that sentiment and didn’t want to be the one to make that image a reality. His tears after the fight were real.

 

Ali should never have been in that ring.

 

Holmes' jab speed slowed down after a few rounds in his second fight against Shavers and he definitely wasn't in shape for a 15 round fight, imagine him trying to perform in Manila for 15 rounds, his jab wouldn't mean a thing to Ali, Ali knocks him out somewhere around 8-11, there's also no way Ali would exhaust himself as much against Holmes as he did against Frazier because Holmes isn't a constant onslaught like Frazier and Holmes would gas so bad in Manila

 

Holmes went 15 round in six occasion.
he stop opponents in round 11to13 in five occasion. he is not boxer who gas out

 

All respect but really? A way slowed down 1975 Ali against prime Holmes...

 

I too feel Larry held back after round 5 or 6.

 

That's totally different.

After the mid 70's, Ali would do very little in some of the rounds in the hope of tiring his opponent out but against Holmes, he did nothing throughout the entire fight.

Even in the later rounds when he was so far behind that he needed a knockout to win, he still did nothing.

He was lethargic before the fight from overdosing on incorrectly prescribed medication and things got even worse when the same medication caused his body to overheat during the fight.

 

Both Joe and Muhammad were nothing less than majestic in that fight. I wish I could find the interview where Ali said towards the end of the fight he kept telling himself "I'm the champion of the world and nobody is taking my title." That Ali though a bit heavier and more than a bit slower is at least a pickem against any man who put on a pair of boxing gloves.

 

Not every fighter necessarily forecasts a KO.

If a fighter has any self aware potential to take it easy on his opponent it would be best for him just to say he’ll win - lest failure to fulfil his prediction impugn him.

Holmes pointedly predicted a KO. He was adamant and he qualified his intent stating that he wanted to get Ali out of there asap to remove the “burden” from his back.

If Holmes was capable of KO’ing Ali he would have done so. Larry tried but he wasn’t capable of doing so. Even late in the fight Holmes was sending in shots meant to put Ali down.

Accounts also suggest that a super serious Holmes trained his a** off, the hardest ever, savaging his sparring partners with high volume punches per round.

Now we’re both dismissing certain Holmes’ comments (pre fight and post fight) on the one hand while accepting him as being genuine on the other.

And we’re basing what we believe on the evidence and optics otherwise.

My run is: as forecast, Holmes definitely tried to put Ali out but couldn’t. Post fight, given his failure to do so and the ugliness of the beat down otherwise, Holmes’ claimed to have mercifully pulled his punches - who was going to benefit from such a claim? Not Ali. Only Holmes - why bother if that wasn’t the motive?

He could’ve just given Ali credit for his durability as a “friend” - no, the motive behind Holmes’ claim was to remove potential heat and discredit from himself.

Also, Holmes was always a cautious operator early in fights - nothing new. When Ali landed a sneaky right on/just after the bell ending round 1 - Holmes was pi**ed.

When he got back to his corner after the 1st round, Larry’s trainer told him to look out for the right as he had previously warned Larry - Holmes agreed.

I “saw” Holmes incrementally ramp up his offence as it became more and more obvious that Ali had nothing in his kick.

During the fight Holmes’ corner also told Larry to get Ali off the ropes and into the middle of the ring for the KO. Ali knew what was best and remained on the ropes, anchoring to take the beating he knew was coming.

In Shavers’ 1 and 2, Holmes teed off whenever possible - he wasn’t sparing or going easy on the previously KO’d Shavers - but he couldn’t put him down in their first fight nor the second which was also a TKO round 11 - Earnie was stopped during that round whereas Ali couldn’t come out for that round.

Even the heavily deteriorated 80s version of Ali had more resilience than Earnie, beaten down worse than Earnie was by Holmes - and Ali had next to nothing to offer in offence, the famous resilience was all that Ali had left.

To repeat again, the punch stats for Holmes do not indicate a fighter holding back at all. Rather, they are high/impressive numbers imo.

 

what kind of pace was Holmes fighting at in that deep of water though, definitely not the same as fighting Ali for 15 rounds under 120 degree stadium lights in 98% humidity, Holmes never fought at the pace Ali and Frazier did in Manila let alone at that pace in those conditions

 

Ali was a freak of nature in my opinion. Whether it was a mental strength thing or just pure physical toughness or a combination of both, the guy refused to get knocked out throughout his career despite taking some fearsome shots. It’s not as though he had a chin of granite or one of those big thick powerful necks that can help when taking hard bangs, or a body built of solid concrete either. He just seemed to have an extraordinary ability to absorb pain, and recover from KO shots quickly. Unfortunately these gifts were probably also a curse. The human body can only take so much before eventually it starts to deteriorate.

Anyway in 1980 against Holmes, I’m not sure those famed powers of recovery and ability to absorb punches or recover from knockdowns were still part of Ali’s weaponry. I got the impression that Holmes could have totally obliterated Ali that night, but for his own reasons chose not to. I could be wrong, but I don’t think I am.
My dad was the opposite…he believed Holmes tried and failed to KO Ali. Ali was just too durable, too resilient. We agreed to disagree

 

Random Points- Larry Holmes has always suggested he beat a good version of Ali. That always left a bad taste in my mouth. For instance Ali said he would have liked to have met a better version of Zora Folley and Rocky said he never met the real Joe Louis. A poster suggested Ali goaded Mike Tyson into taking apart Larry Holmes. That couldn't be further from the truth. Cus and Mike loved Ali . They saw the fight at a theater that was showing it closed circuit. On the way home they didn't say a word to one another. I imagine it was like going to a funeral for them. It shows the Ali magic that someone as knowledgeable as Cus even gave him a chance. A few days later Cus was talking to Ali and said he had a young man who wanted to talk to him. It was then when a thirteen year old Mike told Ali he would avenge his loss. I would add Mike said a Prime Holmes would beat him. That's class.