Frazier Ali I is surprisingly fairly one sided

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by tinman, Jun 5, 2018.



  1. ThatOne

    ThatOne Boxing Addict Full Member

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    A point and a question. The point- Joe was always going to be a tough out for any out boxer. The whole rock, paper, scissors thing. The question- How did Joe "allow" Ali to have two tuneup fights before fighting him? People would have paid to watch Ali box oranges.
     
  2. Marvelous_Iron

    Marvelous_Iron Active Member Full Member

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    I agree that Ali's prime was pre exile, but I also think that Ali's chin was better post exile, I don't think Dundee could have bought enough time had prime Frazier put him down in 63, Frazier was also much more determined than Cooper
     
  3. Flash24

    Flash24 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I agree with you 100 percent. The fighters , and especially the heavyweights" Champions " of today would be considered novices or "club fighters" in years past.
    Slipping and countering is a lost art at the heavyweight level. The sport in general at all weight classes has turned into you punch I block , I punch you block. Fighters hopping in and out like Jack Rabbits , burning unnecessary energy, it's the reason why fighters today seem to tire so early.
    It's very rare to see a countering clinic today as was very common in fights from years past. The fights that were considered "Great" in past years wasn't because two fighters decided to just swing for the fences every round, and neither was defensive. It was because they were capable of slipping ,countering and combo punching so quickly, it was practically impossible for them not to land something substantial on their opponent.
    A couple examples I like to use is Leonard vs Benitez and Pryor vs Arguello.
    Leonard/ Benitez is a fight for purist only. Two fighters standing in the middle of the ring, slipping and countering to perfection for 15rds.
    If one truly wants to learn where the sport was at one time, watch this fight. In my opinion artistry at its best in a boxing ring.
    Pryor vs Arguello was an action fight. They went at each other harder than any fight since. But watch Closely. See the slipping and countering, the tactical changes for both fighters. The positioning. The timing, intuitivness of both fighters from countless hours in the gyms and ring.
    "Magic bottle " aside, the fight was artistic as it was brutal, between two supremely skilled and supremely conditioned ,confident gladiators that Pryor won because ( In my opinion) he was simply a better Jr . Welter. ( No, not because of a "magic bottle ")
    Boxing has regressed in the last 20-30 yrs. Mainly for the safety of the fighters and survival of the sport. Fighters today are not pushed as hard as past fighters. So we don't see the physical damage in fighters today as was very common in world class past fighters. ( A good thing) .
    But fighters today and in the future will never reach the level of past fighters.
     
  4. Pugguy

    Pugguy Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Ali was never the same after the 3.5 year layoff - no question - never to recapture his true prime form (64-67), including his all important leg mobility and complementary stamina in particular.

    Even when he fought Frazier, which was just his 3rd fight into his comeback and less than 5 months since his first comeback fight vs Quarry, Ali had still yet to reach his best possible second career form.

    The Bonavena fight proved there was timing and stamina issues still in play. Even in FOTC, Ali fought under a compromised fuel tank, picking his moments to clown and do little in order to conserve his energy.

    Yet, when Ali did punch without restriction, Ali scored terrifically and hurtfully. It wasn’t a one sided fight and Frazier was far more damaged after the fight had finished and in career terms thereafter.

    Interesting that there were only 6 rounds in total that all 3 judges agreed upon in their scoring - 2 for Ali, 4 for Frazier.

    I believe Joe, who was irrefutably at his absolute peak, which was arguably also a customised, even higher than normal peak at that, given his specific, pathological hatred for Ali - won the fight. Clearly but it was still close.

    However, it seems that, when reasonable context is applied re Ali, it is being mislabelled as “excuses” and being unreasonably rejected lest it discredit Joe’s victory in any way, shape or form - which isn’t the intention.
     
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  5. bboyrei

    bboyrei Member Full Member

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    No doubt it was a clear Frazier victory but Ali had his moments to prevent it from being totally one-sided.

    As for prime for prime, pre-exile with the hate Joe harbored for Ali betraying him, it would show who truly was the best between them. But timing wise we couldn't get that with Frazier still somewhat green in 67, so FOTC was the best possible outcome and Joe had the win that mattered the most with both closest to their primes and undefeated.
     
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  6. SolomonDeedes

    SolomonDeedes Active Member Full Member

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    True, and in any case the reality is it was Frazier, not Quarry, who was originally approached to fight Ali in Atlanta. His manager turned it down, saying that he doubted Ali's promised licence was actually going to materialise, and in any case they were already contracted to fight Bob Foster.
     
  7. turpinr

    turpinr Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I don't know whether Ali could have ever beaten the March 8th 1971 version of Frazier, I doubt it.
    Smokin' Joe's training could not have gone better as far as peaking on the night goes.
     
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  8. Stevie G

    Stevie G Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    A lot of fighters have one night when even Godzilla,King Kong and the Hulk could n't beat them. March 8th 1971 was that night for Joe. With Ali it was the night of the Cleveland Williams fight and,even though he was a little past prime,the Foreman fight. Even if Satan himself had appeared in George's corner that night,Muhammad was determined to leave Zaire as champion. Same applies to Joe Louis in the second Max Schmelling bout.
     
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  9. turpinr

    turpinr Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I really feared for Ali's safety in the fight with Foreman.
    Probably because it wasnt held in the States, but that fight didn't seem to as big as the 1st Ali-Frazier scrap.
    Maybe it's because I picked Frazier and Foremam in those 2 and I'm bitter :)
    2 kids in our boxing club picked Ali to beat Foremam but they weren't very bright.
     
  10. Jel

    Jel Obsessive list maker Full Member

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    I’ve scored this fight twice. First time I had it 11-4 and second time 10-5, both to Frazier.

    Highly competitive and compelling but clear for Frazier.
     
  11. Pugguy

    Pugguy Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I don’t have time to rewatch in one sitting.

    I have to compartmentalise.

    I’ve watched the first 3 rounds so far.

    I actually have Ali up 3-0 although he is already showing some signs of fatigue.

    I see all 3 judges gave Joe the 3rd round. Not sure how that can be - Ali dominated for most of the round imo.

    Joe came on most notably in the last 10 seconds with a big hook and several good body shots. Notably, the replay after the round only highlighted Joe’s success in the final 10 seconds.

    Imo, it wasn’t enough to claw back the round - an even round being an absolute best case for Joe but I don’t think Joe managed that anyway.

    I’ll also note that Joe’s scoring shots, even near misses, appear to be much better received (than Ali’s) by the live audience.

    In one instance, I saw Ali land multiple power jabs and right hands - then Joe landed a single left hook, his signature punch, and the crowd spiked, letting out a notable whoop.

    Besides Joe actually scoring, the commentary are extremely enamoured with Joe’s go forward aggression and resilience to Ali’s numerous punches. That’s a fair reactive observation - but it does reflect that for such an observation to be made that Ali was pitching and landing more for good periods of time.

    The term “bartering” was used several times in reference to the shots Joe was taking as well as it being mused as to how long Joe could stand up to same.

    No question, Joe was having his own successes, hard shots to head and body but they weren’t as consistent at this stage but they were still formidable and clearly catching the audience’s eyes as well as Joe’s unwavering, grim determination.

    Ali’s holding/manhandling is excessive at times but Joe has also landed a few very hard punches clearly on or below the belt line.

    In summation, imo, Ali has given Joe a good going over in the first 3 rounds but Joe has certainly popped Ali back several times. Ali appears to be slowing down already and that presents as an invitation for Joe to come in even harder and stronger.

    What an amazing fight! Possibly one of the most easily rewatched (again and again) matches ever. Like an all time classic movie.
     
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  12. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    That's my take on the first three as well.

    I can see why Joe's hook brought such excitement from the crowd, because the were lethal and seemingly came out of nowhere, while Ali's work was more continuous. But very many were rooting for Frazier. This about Ali being everyone's darling came years later, at this time he was still a very divisive figure, still out on appeal of a jail sentence.
     
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  13. Pugguy

    Pugguy Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Agree with everything you said.

    Ironically, it was actually Ali losing the FOTC and his courageous performance therein that began to turn things around in terms of his garnering greater respect and admiration from the broader public.

    I’ve just watched round 4 actually. Perhaps I might lose your agreement at this point, haha, but in all objectivity, I give that round to Ali also.

    I’ll duly note that all 3 judges gave the 4th round to Joe. Interesting.

    Again, during that round, Dunphy notes that Joe is taking some battering, fielding punches that would’ve felled lesser men and he also notes that that Ali must be way ahead on points.

    Not that I am swayed by Dunphy’s observation but I do agree with his assessment at that point in the fight - but Frazier still lands some of those powerful, eye catching hooks that you accurately described, punches which clearly excited the majority of the audience more than Ali’s steady work otherwise.

    I’ve got 11 more rounds to watch - I’ve got to start scoring some rounds for Joe otherwise I’ll appear heavily biased. LOL.
     
  14. Mike Cannon

    Mike Cannon Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Hi Buddy.
    As I have posted on here a while ago, and I am out of step with 95% of all the posters that have Frazier winning the fight, but I have Ali , if not winning, then giving as much as he received, in fact no ! he gave more than he received, I am going against some of the most respected and knowledgeable forum members ( as well as liking them ) when I say FOTC was a very close fight.
    It was a film of the fight that I had hitherto not come across before, think it was on YT and it as a few years ago, the whole fight was filmed/viewed from a upward trajectory ( as if you were watching from the seats ) viewed from this standpoint, the punches Ali landed on Frazier looked hard, thudding punches that jarred and rocked Joes head back, time and time again, these shots were not from the earlier Ali/Clay incarnation, whilst on the move, gliding in and out, on the the balls of his feet, these punches was let loose by a 15st plus HW, with his feet firmly planted on the floor, the rights were sickening, how Joe remained upright for 15 rounds is a testament to his, courage, conditioning, will to win, and all out spartan like approach to this fight.
    Their is, as you would expect, lots of talk about the top ten HWs, how would Fury, AJ, Wilder @ co fare against the the fighters of yesteryear and in particular the late 60s till late 70s, as of yet, for me they don't , and one thing is cast in stone, all of them, would not relish a Joe Frazier at his peak, rubbing his boxing boots in resin, in the opposite corner, to wit ,it is inconceivable to my mind to not see Fraziers name in anyone's top ten, not maybe so much to align with his resume/record ( which stands up against the best ) but more to recognise and appreciate what a fighter he was, a enrelentin, totally focused, threshing machine, devoid of tricks, no smoke and mirrors, a HW honed to perfection, who would rather die in the ring than coutenounce surrender, who with his face taking on gargoyle like lumps, his right eye shut, his left eye a split, the mouth oozing thick bitter tasting blood, would admonish Futch for stopping the fight, we have not, and will not see his like again, he was small by HW standards, but a titan in achievements.
    stay safe guys.
     
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  15. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    No, I agree with you about the 4th. It's clear by the end that Ali is flagging, but he he is doling out tremendous punishment for the first two, two and half minutes of the round and Frazier taking over at the end isn't enough to give him the round imo.

    I go by Mercante's principle of scoring each minute of a round, so not to give to much weight to what happens at the end. If it is the case boxer A just edges two minutes of the round and then boxer B kicks his ass during the last minute, then I'd give the round to boxer B. There has to be some flexibility to the system of scoring each minute, of course.

    But I don't think this is the case in any of the first four rounds in FOTC. And I can't see how anyone would claim that Frazier won two minutes of any of the first four rounds.

    I do believe Mercante gave Frazier at least one of these rounds, so he probably disagreed with me, though.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2022
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