That is not true. Shavers had Ali in the corner in the halfway point of the round and Ali landed several clean uppercuts. I already pointed this out to you and you ignored it. If you're going to count Shavers sloppy arm punches to the body that had no weight behind them you also have to count Ali landing at least 7-8 uppercuts on Shavers. Ali DID in fact connect with more punches than Shavers did AND he hurt Shavers and finished the round strong.
I watched that final round again. Ali never had Shavers in the corner until the end of the round. And he only landed 1 good clean left uppercut, which Shavers immediately countered with some shots of his own. But I will have no problem agreeing with you if you point out exactly when it happened. The last round starts at around 1:00:30. This content is protected
Read my previous post that breaks down the action. I didn't say he had Shavers in the corner twice, I said when Ali was in the corner he landed multiple clean shots. Ali also landed at least 2 uppercuts.
Thanks JT for putting in the time and effort to fill me in. You hear/read a lot of things and are never sure what is 100% true and what is not, some of these things I knew but not all. As to what’s true and what isn’t, see the current BS surrounding negations for Fury vs AJ. Yes, it was Foreman Ali asked to take care of Norton - I think I first read that from you when I joined the board. George had become Ali’s potential minion, even when George held the title, Ali still acted like the boss of him. LOL. In all fairness, even though we might have sympathy for Muhammad based on outstanding prior achievements, if Ali did sidestep George, that is of course technically and morally wrong - the “order” re the re-hiring of Sadler was incredibly dictatorial - and Sadler had already worked for a time with Ali - correct? I wonder if rematches should always be the order of the day in a moral sense when the title changes hands. I guess it depends on the individual circumstances. I wonder how the general public felt at the time - I don’t recall reading any complaints or claims of avoidance - even so, it doesn’t mean George didn’t get shafted - it just simply means the majority of fans were more than happy to have Ali back as Champ - fair or not, popularity counts for a lot in the bigger picture of boxing and its inherent machinations.
I hadn’t read that Shavers said that. Thanks. It is general precaution to be wary of the wounded fighter. Larry Holmes exemplified this, time and again, coming back even harder after he himself had been hurt. Not so easy to write a hurt Ali off against another opponent - if anyone earned the benefit of the doubt in such situations it was Ali - and of course the Ali that Shavers’ caught was well past his salad days. And, it’s noteworthy that when Shavers did follow up, he did actually punch in combination while Ali was on the ropes, causing Ali to immediately abandon his rope a dope. Earnie actually followed up with the perfect offence, uppercut and hooks, while Ali was on the ropes - tbh, I’ve never seen a better answer to Ali lying on the ropes - and Earnie punched thusly on several occasions. He posted a very good, intelligent performance I like Tyson and do think he was a great fighter - but really, much of what is he assumed to be capable of in the realm of fantasy well exceeds what he did in his actual career - especially when taking into account the quality of opposition. Might not seem much, but even after Mike KD’d Holmes with that SINGLE huge right mid round 4, an old, inactive, out of shape and badly wounded Larry still lasted close to another 1 1/2 mins, ultimately succumbing very near the end of the round - in prime, that could actually result in his surviving the initial damage - and prime Holmes wouldn’t have been caught so cold and so early in the first instance. After the first, single shot KD, Tyson himself wasn’t exactly landing combos, rather he landed single, periodic bombs as Holmes moved (wobbled) and tried to fend him off.
I believe Sadler worked with Ali after George. Ali loved his mind games and being the boss and was incredibly shrewd at times. George was already paranoid Sadler conspired against him in the Ali fight so he was hardly keen to rehire him for a rematch on, of all people, Ali's insistence. If anything it would have confirmed in his own mind the multiple conspiracies he was already dreaming up. After digging around Ali didn't do anything wrong. It's not like a Holmes-Page or Bowe-Lewis situation where the belt was given up and the mandatory avoided bearing in mind Bowe had two other belts and it's hard to meet the obligations of not one, not two but three organisations. It never got to that point and Ali was actually defending two titles throughout. I'm not sure there was any great instant demand tho the ball was certainly rolling as Foreman beat top level contenders in Frazier and Lyle. Ali had beaten him pretty impressively and without a huge amount of trouble to the casual observer. It's interesting that he twice willingly fought Frazier after his initial loss to him and we know those fights were grueling to say the least. Perhaps it lends credence to how tough that fight against Foreman was and how deep he had to dig. I think Foreman should have got a shot in late 76 or at least have been signed for a match for that time period or just after - ideally. He again walked over Frazier whom ali had just fought FOTY against. He'd beat top 4 contender Lyle not long prior. Ali had run out of room to move by the time Foreman fought Young and realistically he should have been fighting Ali i reckon. So on one hand you can say that technically Ali didn't have to fight him but you can also surmise Ali should have. Old foes Frazier and Norton were getting gigs among others while Foreman was kept in the cold. Additions - Foreman was the Ring FOTY in 1976 and i also forgot about the rumors of Ali urinating blood in the dressing room after the Foreman fight.
Of course he was still great, but way past it, and even Ferdie Pacheco said Ali needed to retire after the Shavers fight. Ferdie left the camp after that one.
Excellent write up JT, thanks again for the time and effort. As you know, most didn’t give Ali much chance in the first instance, some literally fearing for Ali’s health/life. As you said, casuals might’ve seen the victory as relatively easy - but the prior naysayers and even the few who favoured Ali before the fact, still would’ve understood and appreciated that, even though Ali won, it was a precariously balanced fight from go to whoa. Not a fight that would necessarily go the same on repeat. Interesting that in prevailing over the likes of Liston and Foreman, Ali could make people forget what monsters those guys actually were when Ali beat them and humanised them. Some even try to reason in hindsight that Liston and Foreman weren’t all they were touted to be as at the time - not at all true imo. Their reputations were well earnt. Ali as underdog, in fights 10 years apart, rolled two of the legitimately best, most powerful and justifiably scariest HW Champs of all time. Ali had many other feathers in his cap but those two victories, just in themselves, lend an enormous amount of substance and credit to a very hard to beat resume.
Apparently Muhammad's people offered George a rematch but the latter went AWOL throughout 1975 as we all know - unless we count the Toronto exhibition. By the time Muhammad hit 34 he knew he was n't as good as he was two years or so previously. After beating George there were three big fights out there for him - Frazier,Norton and a return with George. Ali took two but did n't fancy the third at that point. Prior to Manila he had a "Let 'em all come. I'll whup 'em all" mentality,but afterwards he knew he had to parcel his energy out more. Can't blame him at all for that. His resume was second to none but he should have retired if he knew that he was slowing up. Which he probably would have been happy to but there was too much financial temptation (for him AND some people around him) to do so.
I just watched the last round and man, it's horrible. Both of the boxers look completely exhausted and have basically nothing left in the tank. Shavers was extremely sloppy, but still found Ali a few times. Overall, neither did much for the most of the round. Ali finished stronger and caught Earnie with some uppercuts in the end, so I'd give Ali the edge, but it's really not a round to rave about. Someone else mentioned that it's closer to 10-8 for Ali than 10-9 for Shavers. I disagree, Ali didn't have Shavers "almost out" and he didn't do much for most of the round. He also got caught by a few sloppy punches. As I said, it's Ali round but it's still a horrible display from both fighters.
Finally, a more realistic assessment of the round, even though I give Shavers a slight nod. You and I don't agree on many things, but I'm glad you were objective on this one.
Do you have a source for Ali supposedly offering an immediate rematch? Not sure I've heard that before.
Fantastic post and i agree wholeheartedly on every point. Both were considered by many to be unbeatable animals at the time Ali fought them and he was a heavy underdog against both of them. That he did it to not one but two monsters 10 years apart as you say is absurd really. Add to that winning the series against Frazier and beating sooooooooo many top 10 contenders and he's a lock for me.
Larry didn’t run at all actually. He tried to move but he accented more on clinching and holding. Even after the first KD, Larry went into Tyson and threw an uppercut.
