Oleksandr Usyk and Muhammad Ali At Cruiserweight

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by Fogger, Oct 9, 2022.



Ali and Usyk at Cruiserweight - Who Wins

  1. Ali by KO/TKO

    12 vote(s)
    21.8%
  2. Ali by Decision

    21 vote(s)
    38.2%
  3. Draw

    1 vote(s)
    1.8%
  4. Usyk by KO/TKO

    6 vote(s)
    10.9%
  5. Usyk by Decision

    15 vote(s)
    27.3%
  1. Redbeard7

    Redbeard7 Well-Known Member Full Member

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    "AJ never started boxing until he was about 20"

    This statement exposes the degree to which your assertions are based on ignorance and myth. AJ started boxing at 18, which is younger than Holmes (19) Liston (early 20's) Norton (early-mid 20's) and Lyle (mid-late 20's).

    If people are honest with themselves, they know that the "bodybuilder" would smash Frazier and Norton to bits at a bare bones minimum. Virtually no one would pick these ridiculously overmatched opponents in a fantasy matchup if their lives depended on it.
     
  2. Redbeard7

    Redbeard7 Well-Known Member Full Member

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    1966 Ali vs 2018 Usyk

    Ali: 24 years old, started boxing age 12, 88 confirmed amateur bouts with a record of 80-8 (3 rounders, 247 rounds max) 25 pro (144 rounds contested) stopped 9 pro opponents who were 197+ lbs

    Usyk: 31 years old, started boxing age 15, 350 amateur bouts with a record of 335-15 (3-4 rounders, 1076-1332 rounds max) 6 WSB (25 rounds contested) 14 pro (105 rounds contested) stopped 11 WSB/pro opponents who were 197+ lbs (pre-rehydration)

    Ali had been knocked down from head shots twice in the previous 15 fights/4.5 years (Sonny Banks, Henry Cooper) hadn’t fought a southpaw in 6 years, had lost to at least two southpaws in the amateurs (Kent Green by KO, Amos Johnson by SD) and 2013 Usyk was heavier than 28/33 of Ali’s pre-Mathis opponents, as well as about 9 lbs heavier than 1966 Ali.

    1966 Ali had a highly competitive fight with European champion southpaw Mildenberger over 11.5 rounds (154-144 punches landed out of 612-538 thrown according to Compubox, 4-3-1 according to 2/3 of the judges minus the KD’s) who was 6’1.5 with a 73 inch reach, 195 lbs, had been dropped numerous times and KO’d twice (once in the 1st round) in 54 fights, registered a 31% KO ratio with 0 KO’s in his previous 5 fights and had a 52-12 amateur record, with winning the German LHW championship being his best amateur accomplishment.

    Usyk has studied Ali extensively and has modern advantages in terms of training and "nutrition", as well as a tougher upbringing being from a working-class family in post-Soviet Ukraine.

    Speaking realistically, with the knowledge that all sports where objective measurements have been made have seen vast improvements over the last 50-60 years, Ali (who was a relatively light puncher even in his physically small, geographically limited and scientifically primitive era) would have less than a 10% chance against Usyk.
     
  3. Wasteman

    Wasteman Certified Wasteman Full Member

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    lmao
     
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  4. Themessiah

    Themessiah El Jefe Full Member

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    Welcome back @NEETzschean
     
  5. SmackDaBum

    SmackDaBum TKO7 banned Full Member

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    Listons reach are overrated. Luis Ortiz also had 84 inch reach before he faced Wilder. You just need to look at him 6.05 inches tall and not very long arms for his frame compared to other boxers. Liston was small compared to Cruisers of today. And he thought Ali hit hard because he was bullied by a bigger man. Ali was like a poor mans Klitschko when it came to bully smaller men in the ring. Also Foreman was not huge compared to Ali they were roughly the same size just watch their fight. Usyk fought a much bigger man in Joshua compared to Alis jungle rumble.

    Alis style are exposed and doesnt work anymore. 60 years of boxing evolution. But some people thinks that boxing gets worse by every year because of all the breakdowns and science around. These people should be banned.
     
  6. Entaowed

    Entaowed Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    People who believe what YOU think is correct should be banned?
    Folks should not be free to express their opinion politely on a free & open forum-which tends to let all arguments be addressed, & sometimes persuasively rebutted-& freedom to express what someone feels is wrong should be crushed?

    That in itself is an oppressive, unjust, undemocratic opinion-that you should be free to express.
    But it is consistent with what a Putin, Modi, Trump, JinPing, Jong-un & a host of fascist inclined leaders would do.

    Liston's reach MAY be overrated. This was discussed at great length many times, including by me with an otherwise & previously sane, kind poster who went mad-& later was banned for unrelated hyperabusive conduct-but ironically we agreed his wingspan was very large compared to his height, whatever it was precisely. Hopefully he will not nurture a grudge into our relative dottage, both of us born & likely conceived during the first Ali "administration"...
    But you will maybe find NOBODY else who agrees that his arms-& hands, & width of his chest, all of which goes into "ape factor"-are not very long compared to his frame.
    Although frame is not relevant-there is no correlation between what that usually means, thickness of bone structure, & any length measurements-it is height that is broadly & imperfectly correlated with wingspan.

    Also, by what measure is Liston small compared to CWs of today?
    Again a little shorter than average-but their rehydrated weights do not average more than his at least 210-215 lbs., & if anything his upper body is more muscular & he is heavier lb. for lb.
    Although he is around average for today's CWs, you are existing on a different plane of reality if you think that even current CWs do not think Liston his very hard for a HW even today...
    And should know that force of punches has dominishing returns-at best-by his size.
    There are endless massive weightlifters who cannot hit as hard as an average HW.

    Ali & Foreman were around the same size-at least when you consider that Foreman came in the ring foolishly dehydrated-but were different in punching power & strength.
    It IS idiotic to think boxing gets worse every year.
    But equally delusional to believe it always gets better-although over time , on average, it does.

    There is zero reason to believe Ali's style would not work today.
    Question is, would it be not AS effective due to things like increased size?
    It may well be so, but even that is based somewhat on the fact that RULE CHANGES favor the bigger, slower man-gloves, rounds, clinching allowed...
     
  7. snake33

    snake33 Active Member Full Member

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    Ali would beat Usyk without a doubt. Different classes altogether.
     
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  8. SmackDaBum

    SmackDaBum TKO7 banned Full Member

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    Liston would be smaller. Just compare His BF% with the modern CW division... He would not have as heavy hands as he had in the 60s in the bigger modern CW division of today. Its easy to look up actually. Compare fighters KO ratio at different weight ranges. I can asure you that the heavier the opposition the less knockouts but that is a given.

    If Alis style would have been succefull ( no guard lean back) other boxers would have used it to success aswell. In the 80s alot of Ali clones had mixed success with it but other styles took over and it died out. If Ali boxed today he would need to learn to be the small guy not box like a big bully. And he would have no power and no chin for this division. His best gameplan would be hit and run. I would pick Hughie Fury over Ali any day. Bigger and more skilled.
     
  9. Entaowed

    Entaowed Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    You make good argument, respect, but I disagree-in part.
    Liston did have higher BF & was shorter than average, that evens out but mainly means guys today do a lot of weight training,.
    That does not translate to being naturally as big or just because you add some muscle you can hit proportionately harder.
    Harder to KO big HWs, yes.
    Liston would still hit the hardest among CWs, & like the hardest hitting HWs.
    Like Wilder? Maybe if he wound up as much, tilting windmills...But more skilled.

    Nobody has the combination of skills Ali had, like nobody has the exact skill set & speed of Tyson.
    I will grant it is harder when guys are bigger-but some of them rely on size, & have limited endurance.

    See there is truth in BOTH perspectives, but you are too one sided Grasshopper.
    I withdraw that if you are not young-which you almost certainly are.

    Ali naturally could & did hit & run often, especially at his peak. Nothing new, & Ali was very adaptable.

    It makes no sense to say Ali would have to "not box like a big bully".
    Huh? Big bully means overwhelming with size & power-name the best fighter in any generation they have some physical advantages, maybe the seeming monsters of today would need to learn how to box more with...Smaller gloves. Longer fights. Less clinching allowed.

    Surely you must recognize that Usyk is small for the division, has less even absolute power than Ali, & maybe only Fury is better.
    So there is zero reason to think Ali could not dominate too.
    Oh & if Fury beats him WITH a huge amount of leaning & hugging like a newfound lover-like Ali's victory over Frazier in #2, we should consider that invalid-or that we have no idea who would win IF it was a fair fight!

    But saying Ali would have no chin today betrays great bias.
    Ali had a superb chin.
    Fury is huge but let us see if he can do like Ali & pull off an Epic victory when not allowed to clinch a dramatically smaller man-like Ali did in Manilla while they set a record for HW punches landed.

    Don't be the the same as old guys who always favor their generation...
     
  10. SmackDaBum

    SmackDaBum TKO7 banned Full Member

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    You seems like a good guy respect to that and i dont want to disrespects your potential childhood heros (we all have them) but i must be logical.

    Okay a big bully can also be coward like Klitschko and Ali. Avoiding contact playing keep away and then clinch and maul down the smaller guy. It looks like something from a school yard but its effective if allowed.

    I rate both Usyks chin and power above Alis. Henry Cooper would not be a KO artist in the modern cruiserweight division. Too small and weak. Power might be the closest for Ali on Usyk so lets say 50/50. We can also look at ko percentage over different weight ranges.

    I hope Usyk beats Fury but i would never bet on it. About Liston: he was said to have real power even behind his jab. I see kubrat Pulev today and he has a very powerful han but he gets disrespected like he is featherfisted. But just watch the power behind the jab alone. And the man is heavy. Just Imagen his jab against small men of the 60's

    I hope you enjoy your boxing.
     
  11. MorvidusStyle

    MorvidusStyle Well-Known Member Full Member

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    This poll is like an IQ test and over half the forum failed.
    Usyk is a lot better than Ali, and would destroy him.

    People probably think Ali would school AJ like Usyk did but the reality is that the guy who got floored by Cooper and Frazier and was very easy to hit, which is partly why he ended up a vegetable, would likely be bombed out. He doesn't have Usyk's skill or chin.
     
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  12. Entaowed

    Entaowed Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    You seem decent too, but you are taking the most EXTREME views.
    It is one thing to rate Usyk's power above Ali, we disagree, but you are providing no evidence.
    Also it is very basic boxing knowledge that KO % does not show pure power, but effective power that involves many things-can you not list so many things that go ibto KOs besides power?

    You also show no cause to have Usyk's chin above Ali's-understand you are the kind of person who always picks the more modern guys: In do not show the opposite bias.
    But what is extreme is not finding another elite fighter at least a little better:

    It is statements like ALi would have "no chin" today.
    Or that Ali was "a coward".

    Do you understand that if you had a survey almost anyone with any boxing knowledge would find such extreme views laughable?
    That everybody else would not be wrong here?
     
  13. GGGunbeatable

    GGGunbeatable Boxing Junkie Full Member

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  14. mark ant

    mark ant Canelo was never athletic Full Member

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    I saw a pic of Liston`s arms dangling really low, his reach was clearly longer than Ali`s who had the same reach that Usyk has.
     
  15. Braindamage

    Braindamage Baby Face Beast Full Member

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    Name 5 fighters from the USSR during that time that would dominated in the 60's and 70's.