Max Schmeling - Ken Norton?

I am not so sure this is that true. It never seemed to enhance Micheal Spinks (strictly as a HW) that he beat Larry Holmes when he did. Ali, like Larry vs Micheal, by the third fight with Norton, had already secured a legacy. Norton, if he got the nod, is simply getting a win over a tired champion. One that mikes brother Leon managed to get and was hardly celebrated.

not so sure Ken is well past his own peak against Larry. Where was the Norton decline prior to this?

On one hand we have people saying Louis was at his best against Max Baer, a fight that came before Joe Louis fights Schmeling, and on the other hand we have those saying Louis not being at his best for Schmeling. Can we have it both ways?

Even though post exile nobody thinks Ali was ever the same, I still think Ali was very decent losing to Norton. But he’s fighting Ken with an injury for most of that fight.

 

It doesn't imply that he is going to beat Norton, but it does suggest that he might do better against the field as a whole.

 

Good points Fergy. And that's why I think that Ken would take this one over 15 rounds.

 

Max Schmelling said he beat Joe Louis in their first fight was because he had studied Louis and saw that when Louis threw a jab he had a tendency to drop his right hand. Schmelling being a counter puncher patiently waited and then caught Louis. Schmelling although a great counter puncher could be to a better opponent for Ken Norton who struggled against aggressive fast come forward fighters like George Foreman, Earnie Shavers and Gerry Cooney he was better suited to slow burners like Muhammad Ali and Larry Holmes and fighting more tactical matches. The question is would Norton's cross arm guard/Philly shell type defense give Schmelling easy openings? I think Norton may win this one on a cagey decision but if he gets sloppy with his defence he's in trouble.

 

Ken was more or less 35 yo (2 months shy) for Holmes - I think it reasonable to suggest he was likely somewhat past peak. The fight was tough, Ken performed very well but I don’t know that his stamina was what it used to be.

Personally, I look deeper than the one official win over Ali which ignores available context. Norton beats Ali in fight 1 (official nod) and arguably beats Ali in the rubber but both fights are dismissed for Ali being unfit/injured in fight 1 (contention when the jaw was broken) and arguably beating a “tired”’Champ in the rubber.

But we have all important fight 2, super close, no excuses. Adequate sampling and fair argument for Norton being a nightmare for any post exile version of Ali.

Whatever Ali’s decline as at Sep 1976, it continued at an accelerated rate thereafter and Ali did absorb significant punishment at the hands of Earnie Shavers between the Norton and Spinks fights (and Ali took Norton far more seriously than he did Spinks also).

Personally, I don’t know that Louis wasn’t prime for Schmeling. Max saw a flaw and took advantage and gutted out his plan. Kinda of case of sh*t happens.

I guess you could say Louis repaired the “flaw” to improve himself - became a better fighter for it based on one opponents careful study of him - but I’d probably still say it was a prime Louis but not best performed on the night - perhaps too complacent etc.

 

Or it means that your description of Louis is wrong.

 

If we go with the versions from their best performances (Louis I and Ali I), then the difference between them is 18 lbs, not 25. Still a considerable advantage that should be taken into account of course, but not as big as some may believe.

 

I think Schmeling was a little bit more versatile than Norton and people often view him as the patient stalker from Louis fights should watch more of his efforts from the early 1930s. He could also pressure his opponent or even jab with bigger guys, he was very well rounded.

 

Perhaps but the H2H question in the thread title was vs each other.

 

You always state weight advantages are very much overrated yet in hypotheticals always strive to find the highest weight for the guy you are backing.

Schmeling was actually past his absolute peak by that stage and like almost all heavyweights he was putting on weight at the back end of his career. Holmes, Ali, Frazier, they all did the same. Schmeling was world champ half a decade prior and invariably weighing in at 188-189 odd. IMO you are giving Norton a slightly inferior version of Schmeling. At his best i believe he was 188-189.

You call Louis his "best performance" but was it really? It's his best win but we know the various factors that helped (Louis' terrible camp, defensive flaw etc). Best win might not actually equal best performance.

You also label Ali 1 as Norton's best performance but we also know Ali came into that one pretty lackadaisical. Norton put on a helluva performance in the last Ali match weighing 217 1/2. There's every chance he was as formidal as ever or better in that fight. I'd be more than happy to throw this Norton in with Schmeling and all of a sudden we are looking at 27+ pounds.

As you say, even 18 pounds is worthy of considering, somewhat. Not the be and end all by any means, but notable.

 

Of course it is true. How could it not be. Of course it enhanced Spinks legacy by moving up from 175 and winning the title against a Holmes who, tho well faded, still kept on winning.

If he won Norton was defending the lineal title!!!!! He would have title defenses under his belt! This wouldn't enhance his legacy? Please.

Leon never did anything remotely as good as Norton did at Heavyweight, terrible comparison. Ali slipped quite a bit between Norton III and Spinks rest assured.

He was past his peak. He was 2 months off 35 and had been slugging it out for over a decade. He was still performing at a very good level but don't tell me he wasn't comfortably past his absolute peak. He didn't look so sharp against Young and from memory may have even been hurt by a guy who was winning feather fist awards in the mags.

Louis' own trainer stated BEFORE the Schmeling fight Louis had dogged it in camp and he was worried. Before the rematch the same trainer said Louis was in great shape this time and he was extremely confident to put it mildly. The talk was there even BEFORE the bout.

The greatest most well rounded Joe Louis was born out of the ashes of the Scheling whupping.

You may well mount an argument Louis was never better in ring than against Baer but it simply wasn't that finely honed specimen in there with Schmeling and nor could Baer take advantage of the few mistakes Louis had in him. Schmeling was way more skilled.

There's lots of things going on, not only in Norton's win but Maximillian's as well. There's not a chance in high heaven that Louis in the first fight was as good as Louis in the second, and Ali in the second Norton match was definitely somewhat better than he was in the first. It's immediately reflected in his weights.

 

Correct. It’s not like the 40lb between Helenius and Wilder made much of a difference.

 

Schmeling is a very talented fighter, no if's or but's.