Describe How A 1964 Ali V 1974 Foreman Fight Runs?

Cassius runs rings around George and stops an an exhausted Foreman around the tenth/eleventh round. George would have some success but would always be one step behind.​

 

Ali runs circles around Foreman, hitting George with punches that are that much faster than those Ali easily landed in Zaire.

George might cut the ring off on Ali a few times to land some but Ali will survive and extricate himself. I could see Ali KO’ing or stopping Foreman any time from the 8th round on and he would look brilliant in doing so.

 

Post Cooper Ali wins a unanimous decision or stops Foreman late. He learned from his mistake and would be firing on all cylinders, being very cautious and using his legs and defense to avoid being trapped or slugging.

Pre Cooper Ali gets stopped within 6. He was way too overconfident and would eventually get caught and pay for it. Pre Zaire Foreman was one of the few who could stop a young cocky Ali.

 

There is a lot of truth to this post. Muhammad Ali was overconfident against Henry Cooper in their first fight on June 18 1963, he toyed and played too much against a very determined Cooper who had one of the best left hooks in the game. On May 21 1966, Ali defended his title against a very confident Cooper, Ali was very cautious of that left hook which had deposited Ali on his behind in 1963, Ali won this fight, TKO 6, no knockdowns this time. Ali in 1964 would have fought George Foreman very cautiously, circling around him as he did against George Foreman's boyhood idol Sonny Liston on Feb 25 1964. In 1964, Ali did not need to use Rope A Dope because his legs were fresh he was only 22 years old. In 1974, Ali's legs were very sporadic, sometimes they were there, and other times not, as Ali was 32 in 1974.

 

I don’t know if Foreman is intelligent enough to beat even this version of Muhammad.

 

I would favor Ali, but Foreman has a decent chance.
In part because the ring was so small & soft!
Yes the decade younger Ali would have better legs & endurance, but would he be as effective with the jab & grab & illegally pulling George down with all his weight?
He would not have done the rope-a-dope like in the '70's, where even with those tricks he admitted being out on his feet.

So IF he does not clinch & pull Foreman-or the referee properly enforces the rules, AND the rule set is the same that favors Foreman, a soft canvas phone booth...

Foreman has a decent chance to put Ali away.

 

Ali would outpoint him with ease, he way too fast. Even the 74 Ali was way too fats for the mummy Foreman.
There are however several disadvantages 64 Ali had compared to the 74 Ali:
1. he was less experienced and not used to fighting dirty
2. he was more prone to making a mistake
2. he had a weaker chin.

 

I agree with several points but not all.

Ali might not have been ideally conditioned, mentally and physically, to take a lot of heavy punishment - but at each turn of his career when the punishment presented in whatever degree, Ali took it.

And, imo, Ali did take some big shots to the head/body from Liston in Miami. He was already upholding excellent resilience and mettle.

Also, for whatever it’s worth, shortly after he beat Foreman in Zaire, Ali was asked how the prime version of himself would’ve fared against Foreman - and Ali replied that it would’ve been much easier for him. I agree.

Conversely, I always remember reading that Ali said Ken Norton would’ve eaten up the younger version of himself (Ali). I don’t agree but it’s an interesting self-take.

As to Ali fighting dirty, at least vs Foreman, it is exaggerated and OBVIOUS context is sorely missing.

Foreman practiced heavy shoving/manhandling in many bouts prior to - it was a given he would do same to Ali at first opportunity.

Ali simply fought fire with fire - even if preemptively. (see Holyfield removing the bullets from Tyson’s less than legal gun in similar fashion)

Foreman was used to being the significantly stronger man and using it to his advantage via not so legal means.

George would’ve been duly shocked and mentally damaged/taken aback by Ali’s proactive solution to a facet of the game that Foreman usually dominated.

Ali did a LOT of things to Foreman that George was not expecting - a brilliant performance.

 

Ali himself said the man who he called "Mummy" was surprisingly fast-& that was at 4 AM on a slow canvas.
Whether Ali would try the unusual amount of clinching & pulling he never did in his first career would not matter if the referee disallowed it.
Which was the reason we got a great fight in Manilla when Ali was repeatedly warned early, rather than a relative snooze fest.
Foreman's pushing would do much less against a non-swarmer like Ali, either way constantly grabbing & pulling Ali down is much more of a handicap.
Mainly when it was not a case where he needed to maintain distance vs. a crowder, quite the opposite, he had to catch an outboxer...

However again to me it just gives Foreman a decent chance.
Ali's greater speed & endurance when younger may well carry the day.
He broadly has a stylistic advantage, I make it 60-40.
But it is important not to rationalize circumstances to get the conclusion we might prefer due to our fandom.
Mainly fighting

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, even transplanted a decade earlier, it is no definite thing.
Under neutral conditions I favor Ali more strongly.

 

A likely outcome i think. Ali would have to work hard tho in those conditions tho and even the young version would knock himself around a bit keeping off those ropes against a superb ring cutter like George. George would be trying to ram Ali's left side as he scythed out of the corners but as one famous scribe once said - nobody ever took it to the body like Ali.

 

Agree.

Just to clarify, I’m assuming a normal size ring - I don’t know that the OP necessarily prescribed the heat, ring size, loose ropes and soft canvas from Zaire.

EDIT: Reread the premise, yes, I see how it frames for the conditions in Zaire, Foreman Champ and Ali challenger. Cool.

But just the “condition” of Ali having to maintain acute mobility, staying completely off the ropes against a puncher, ring cutter and not so easily hurt fighter like Foreman, would still be taxing for even the prime version.

Though hard to hit he didn’t evade everything that Liston threw and there were some heavy shots landed by Sonny - and not just in the lineament round.

 

Yeah, so now I need to add - for sure - the conditions in Zaire would add no mean degree of difficulty to young Ali’s task. It really crystallises the fact that if anyone, the conditions were that much more against Ali in Zaire - but never any excuses made by the man - he assessed, processed, adapted and prevailed. Super ring IQ.

 

Absolutely mate, absolutely. He adapted. Of course if he didn't take a punch to both body and head as good as basically anyone ever that adaptation would have failed. But he could and it didn't.